Wednesday, May 18, 2011

"Top 10 Evil Lairs" - May 4, 2011
1- Hitler's Bunker
2- Osama bin Laden's Compound
3- Jeffrey Dahmer's Apartment
4- The Manson Family Ranch
5- H.H. Holmes' Murder Castle
6- The Unabomber's Cabin
7- Josef Fritzl's Dungeon
8- Jonestown
9- Saddam Hussein's Spider Hole
10- Elizabeth Bathory's Castle
Well... we placed fourth, on one of "Times'", "Best and Worst" Lists, in this years "Special Edition".  LOL  Each "Evil Lair" featured a photo, and a small write-up.  The Spahn's photo and write-up are below.  The rest of the "Evil Lair" photos, and articles, can be viewed here, for anyone so inclined:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2069355,00.html
RALPH CRANE / Time Life Pictures
The Manson Family Ranch
By Kayla Webley Wednesday, May 04, 2011
The Spahn Movie Ranch is just your typical family home. If that family is the Family of Charles Manson and his devoted cult of followers, that is. In 1968, at age 80, dairy farmer George Spahn allowed Manson and his followers to move onto his 500-acre (200 hectares) property near Topanga Canyon in Southern California and live rent-free in exchange for housework and sexual favors from the group's women.  It was from this ranch that Manson directed the killings of actress Sharon Tate — the pregnant wife of director Roman Polanski — and six others over a two-day period beginning Aug. 9, 1969. (Tate, who was just two weeks away from giving birth, was stabbed 16 times.)  In an article from 1969, TIME called the killings "one of the grisliest, bloodiest, and apparently most senseless crimes of the century."  After their arrest in October 1969, mastermind Manson and three of his followers were sentenced to death. (When California abolished the death penalty in 1972, their sentences were commuted to life in prison.)

70 comments:

MrPoirot said...

There are amazingly few if any fotos of the back ranch at Spahns. The front ranch has many fotos.

katie8753 said...

Wow, the Manson Family Ranch comes in just under Dahmer's apartment!

"A power saw buzzed at odd hours. The putrid odor of rotting meat flooded the corridors. Occasionally, a tenant would hear a cry or the thump of a falling object on the second floor."

Well, I think that the putrid odor of rotting meat might be your first clue. I wonder what the "thump" was?

Well I gotta, say, if you're 4th on the list of the Top 10 Evil Lairs, above Jonestown, that's pretty pathetic.

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

"Home is Where the Hate Is".

Well put.

Hitler's bunker was a mess. I guess there wasn't time to tidy up. HA HA.

Funny that we were just talking about the Manson/Hitler thing, and they're so close together.

Maybe that makes Charlie smile. :)

katie8753 said...

Mr. P: Do you know of any photos of the back ranch? If so, please send to Lynyrd at gmail and we'll investigate!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie: Something tells me there were "putrid odors" eminating from many of these locations!
...including Spahn's. LOL

I would imagine, the "thump of a falling object on the floor" was someone's arm, leg... or head... courtesy of the buzz saw.

MrPoirot said...

The aerial foto of the entire ranch on charliemanson.com is all I know of. The back ranch was 1/4 miles down the creek from the front ranch.

katie8753 said...

Hi Lynyrd. Great post! HA HA.

You know I think the putrid odor coming off Spahn's Ranch would include not only rotting flesh, but the unwashed body odor of lots of hippy-types rolling around on the floor in a drug-induced frenzy whose noses must have been blocked to the scent of any type of decay due to the drug use.

I won't go into detail, but unwashed humans really leads to "stink 'em, stank 'em, stench".

Boy, that George Spahn surely raised his head at times and said "wheewwww, did a skunk just blow?"

katie8753 said...

Thanks Mr. P. I sure wish we had more photos. Would be very interesting!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I would encourage folks to click the link, and read the excerpt on all 10 locations.
I just got through, and it's insanely interesting material!

It almost makes me want to study a few more of these locations.

Dahmer, the Unabomber, and Fritzl were friggin' freaks!
...and the 900 folks at Jonestown, is just nuts.

Of them all, I'd say Dahmer was the most twisted of the group.
Horror movies like "Hostel" are made from this stuff.
F#ckin' maniac.

...and Saddam's "spider Hole" photo? Wow.
I'm assuming he emerged to eat and crap somehow?

Bottom line... this is "must read" stuff. LOL
Along with your Bible of course. : )

katie8753 said...

Actually Lynyrd, Tarentino based his Hostel movies on 2 of these folks.

H. H. Holmes and Elizabeth Bathory.

Holmes had a crematorium for dead bodies and Bathory loved to be bathed in the blood of a virgin to stay young. Both of which are in the Hostel movies.

I

katie8753 said...

OK speakin of Jim Jones, there are lots of similarities between him and Manson:

"Jones was a voracious reader as a child and studied Joseph Stalin, Karl Marx, Mahatma Gandhi and Adolf Hitler carefully,[7] noting each of their strengths and weaknesses.

Jones claimed that the world would be engulfed in a nuclear war on July 15, 1967, that would then create a new socialist Eden on earth, and that the Temple must move to Northern California for safety. Accordingly, the Temple began moving to Redwood Valley, California, near Ukiah.

They later moved to San Francisco and when the heat got too much, moved to Jonestown, Guyana.

There 909 of his followers, men, women & children, committed suicide with the cyanide-laced koolaid."

Talk about brainwashing.

Well, that's what cult leaders do. They talk about the world ending, and they isolate people from the world, to be the only focal point in their mind.

Yep....that's Chuckie!!

katie8753 said...

Oh BTW, I'm surprised they didn't mention David Koresh (a/k/a Vernon Wayne Howell) who had a compound near Waco, Texas.

More brainwashing.

I'm sure you've all heard about it.

ahcapella said...

Hey Lynyrd, katie, bedpan and all! Very nice website you have here, Lynyrd. Sometimes I used to lurk at that *other* Manson blogspot that you guys were on—but it became a bit…well…what's a good word for "fingernails scraping down a blackboard?" Haha!

Ah…Spahn Ranch. Gathering pictures of the ranch was recently a bit of an unhealthy obsession of mine. A friend of mine was constructing a "virtual Spahn Ranch" in the virtual world of Second Life, and my task was to provide him with as many photos of SR as I could find to serve as reference material. Most of them were screen captures from R.H.'s* Manson film (without permission, of course) and DVD's I got of newsreel footage. *- I'm not going to type his name, as he is a rather litigious individual.

The only actual photograph of the back ranch that I can think of is the Life magazine one (which we've probably all seen) of the interior of the "back ranch house" in which the hippies lived in 1968.

http://www.life.com/gallery/30702/image/50655440#index/9

Hmmm…if that mattress could talk! Haha! R.H.'s Manson film has a tiny bit of footage of the outside of the back ranch house, at one point focusing on the outside of one of the two big windows you see in the above picture. Oh, and there's another pic I've seen on the internet of a pair(?) of dilapidated shacks which may have been the outlaw sheds—as they definitely weren't anything from the front ranch. If I run across it again, I'll post the URL.

Katie, as I understand it, the most prevalent odor at the ranch was the not-so-subtle aroma of horse dung. Apparently among the Family members, Brooks Poston was the best acquainted with it, since he spent so much of his time shoveling it, lol!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello Ahcapella!
Welcome to the Blog!

I enjoyed your post... thanks.

Speaking of Brooks Poston:
He always struck me as being gay.
We're forever hearing inferences, that Steve Parent and Garretson were gay... but for my money, I'd go with Brooks, if I were a gambling man. LOL

Hope to see much more of you Ahcapella!
Truth be told, chatting with the visitors/regulars, is still my favorite part of blogging.

ahcapella said...

Thank you, Lynyrd!

Yeah, I couldn't say for sure whether or not Brooks was gay. We *do* know that he was a very sensitive person, apparently quite emotionally fragile. (According to Paul Watkins, Manson put Brooks in that catatonic death trance which lasted for…what, a few days?) And he was certainly very musical and a good guitarist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tuQo0ooO30

Someone once described Watkins and Brooks' music as "Simon & Garfunkel on Prozac." Haha!

ahcapella said...

Katie, isn't it interesting that Jim Jones still amassed followers—hundreds of them—after his 7/15/67 nuclear war *didn't* occur? I suppose the Mansonphiles are still waiting around for the black/white race war (it's coming down not-so-fast), preferably in a permanent state of wide-eyed "coyotenoia." Also, it's kind of humorous to hear "socialist" and "Eden" put together—haha!

BTW, another (albeit less destructive) whack job is out there preaching that the end of the world is going to commence…this Saturday! So party down while you still can, folks! LOL!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504784_162-20064015-10391705.html

Ken619 said...

katie8753 said...

"Mr. P: Do you know of any photos of the back ranch? If so, please send to Lynyrd at gmail and we'll investigate!"

I have a picture of the house at the back ranch and one of a trailer that was there. I'm not sure where they are exactly, maybe my office. It was a two story white structure. The trailer had props around it like fake cactus and stuff. They are up close pictures(like standing in front of) and are in color. They are the only pictures I've ever seen of the house at the back ranch. Geez, now I got to go find them.

MrPoirot said...

From looking at youtubes of the Spahn area now I notice lots of spray painting on rocks which litters the surrounding countryside. The Barker Ranch was burned by arsonists. Golar Wash Rd had to be closed because of so many inexperienced 4-wheelers needing to be towed out. Even the folks who explored the sites in the Davinci Code story also defaced churches and graves. Everybody wants to get into the act it seems. Getting on a list of infamy merely brings in the vandals.

St. Circumstance said...

This was a great article!!

I agree- Waco compound could have made this list....

katie8753 said...

Hi everyone!

Ahcapella - welcome! I love your humor & knowledge of this case. I hope you will be joining us on a regular basis!

Thanks for sharing those Life Mag pics with us. I vaguely remember (in the windmills of my mind) seeing those pictures years ago right after all this broke.

Those mattresses look pretty well "used". I love that remnant of the "communal clothes pile" on the floor. HA HA.

>>>Katie, as I understand it, the most prevalent odor at the ranch was the not-so-subtle aroma of horse dung. Apparently among the Family members, Brooks Poston was the best acquainted with it, since he spent so much of his time shoveling it, lol!>>>

I'm betting that the horse dung smelled good compared to the "clothes pile". I get a mental image of the horses trying to pinch their nostrils shut when one of the family tried to get near. LOL.

>>>Katie, isn't it interesting that Jim Jones still amassed followers—hundreds of them—after his 7/15/67 nuclear war *didn't* occur? I suppose the Mansonphiles are still waiting around for the black/white race war (it's coming down not-so-fast), preferably in a permanent state of wide-eyed "coyotenoia." Also, it's kind of humorous to hear "socialist" and "Eden" put together—haha!>>>

Yes indeed. That is very interesting. I've studied the Jim Jones case quite a bit, but I can never get it in my head how some maniac can convince people to do just about anything.

"coyotenoia." HA HA. Love that new psychiatric diagnosis!! "Socialist Eden". Now that's an oxymoron!!

katie8753 said...

Hi Ken. Whatever pics you can locate would be much appreciated!!

>>>Mr. P said: Everybody wants to get into the act it seems. Getting on a list of infamy merely brings in the vandals.>>>

Yes unfortunately that's true. That's why the Cielo Drive house was torn down. Too much vandalism and theft.

If you'll remember when Charles Roberts killed those Amish school children in 2006 they razed that school the following week, just for that very reason. They didn't want it remembered in that type of fashion.

katie8753 said...

Hi Circumstance! Yes, it's funny how Manson, Koresh & Jones had very similar MO's.

The whole isolate & control, you can't depend on anyone but ME, all the women are my personal property because I'm the God routine.

I wonder if they read the same handbook. LOL.

St. Circumstance said...

:) Katie...

Your funny- and your right!!

Panamint Patty said...

Poirot, Goler Wash is not closed. We were up there in March, drove straight through.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

This guy Ahcapella is a scream. LOL
Three particularly funny excerpts:

"Someone once described Watkins and Brooks' music as "Simon & Garfunkel on Prozac".

AHahaha
I know huh?
"Have acoustic guitar/flute/mental problems... will travel".

"I suppose the Mansonphiles are still waiting around for the black/white race war (it's coming down not-so-fast)".

hahaha
Yeah, it's coming down fast like molasses.

"It's kind of humorous to hear "socialist" and "Eden" put together—haha!"

Great Stuff Ahcapella!
No one enjoys a good laugh more than me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Circumstance said>>>>
"This was a great article!!
I agree- Waco compound could have made this list".<<<<

I agree on both counts.
This was a very interesting article, and a lot of fun.
I enjoyed reading this TIME article, much more than most.

I was kinda surprised myself, when I didn't see Waco on the list.
I guess they wanted to keep it to 10... and Jonestown, beat them out. LOL

Marliese said...

Speaking of odors, dirty mattresses, horse manure etc., with all the tear down and rebuilding of motors, dune buggies, and stolen car parts around Spahn Ranch etc., wonder how they disposed of (with their concern for the air, trees, water, and animals and all) their used motor oil, batteries, routine household hazardous waste etc?

ahcapella, thank you for the Time Life link. Uncommon images there...there's a photo of the side of the Labianca house, showing the door around the corner from the living room windows, next to the fireplace, the door it is said Charlie entered that was unlocked.
Great photos there, thanks. :)
Sorry, Lynyrd, i'm backtracking a little to the previous thread.

Marliese said...

Katie, and isn't it interesting that the young girls and women he gathered together willingly allowed themselves to be used, abused, debased and degraded into that isolation and controlled lifestyle?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"I'm God, complete control, all the women are mine"...

Where do I buy this handbook? : )

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Wait a minute, wait a minute...(motioning with my hands),
I'm having a visual...

Lynyrd's Skynyrd's Manson Family LAIR"!
Ahahahaha LMAO

OK, OK... I'll stop now.
Folks are trying to have a serious conversation.
Don't mind me... I get de-railed with my own bombastic humor, once in a while. : )

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Marliese said>>>>
"Sorry, Lynyrd, i'm backtracking a little to the previous thread".

Don't be silly Marliese.
You can talk about whatever you want.
All your comments, on any subject, are most welcome.
Have at it girlfriend!!!!! LOLOL

bobby said...

Marliese said:
Katie, and isn't it interesting that the young girls and women he gathered together willingly allowed themselves to be used, abused, debased and degraded into that isolation and controlled lifestyle?

And with all that hindsight, there are some woman & men who think Charlie should be running the one world order.lol.

katie8753 said...

Hi Marliese!!

>>Marliese said: Speaking of odors, dirty mattresses, horse manure etc., with all the tear down and rebuilding of motors, dune buggies, and stolen car parts around Spahn Ranch etc., wonder how they disposed of (with their concern for the air, trees, water, and animals and all) their used motor oil, batteries, routine household hazardous waste etc?>>

That's a very good question. With all those broken down vehicles, I'm sure there were oil stains all over the place.

But...I'm sure Mr. ATWA Manson was right on top of the proper disposal methods. That was probably 2nd on the list, right after "killing some pigs". HA HA.

>>>Katie, and isn't it interesting that the young girls and women he gathered together willingly allowed themselves to be used, abused, debased and degraded into that isolation and controlled lifestyle?>>

Marliese I've tried and tried to understand how anyone, man or woman, could be sucked into such deviant behavior and not think twice about right or wrong or consequences.

I know that once you isolate and begin the constant brainwashing, you can start controlling. I guess the hook to get them to even be there is to "be whatever it is that person needs", according to that person's self esteem or fears. Then when you've got enough control, you can stop the act and just be a total barbarian.

katie8753 said...

>>>"I suppose the Mansonphiles are still waiting around for the black/white race war (it's coming down not-so-fast)".

hahaha
Yeah, it's coming down fast like molasses.>>>

LMAO!!! HA HA HA.

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

>>>Bobby said: And with all that hindsight, there are some woman & men who think Charlie should be running the one world order.lol.>>>

Boy you hit the nail on the head there Bobby. You'd think by now they'd know better. Charles Manson for President. HA HA.

>>>Lynn said: I think they razed Dahmer's apartment complex. My other half was out there a few years ago and stood on the street where it once stood. I always found it interesting that the "Cheesehead" state of Wisconsin produced two of the most gruesome mass murderers, Ed Gein and Jeffrey Dahmer.>>>

"Cheesehead". HA HA, I love that.

I'm kinda surprised Ed Gein isn't on the list, but like Lynyrd said, since they're only listing 10, they can't mention every psychotic SOB. LOL.

St. Circumstance said...

Katie-

Ed Gein was a scary person- but this article was rating scary places...

Thats why I really liked your idea about Waco-

When the flames and bullets came shooting in on the young children in Waco- that had to be a more scarier situation than any of the stuff that actually happened at Spahn or Barker no??

Accept for maybe what happened to Shorty...

Drugs - underage sex/ dirty conditions/ malnutrition.. Spahn was no picnic...

but the babies and kids survived...

katie8753 said...

Hi Circumstance.

This article isn't about scary places, but the Top 10 Evil Lairs.

I don't know if I would rate Ed's house evil, but it was certainly disturbing.

The skin of corpses made into lamp shades, seat covers, and a "girl mask" for Ed, bowls made from skulls, organs in the fridge and heads in the closet....Sounds like a real find! HA HA.

bobby said...

based on events that took place in the lairs listed, i give a tie for #1 between Dahmers apt and HH's castle.Waco not on the list could tie for # 2 with Jonestown.

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby.

I think if it was listed in order of number of casualties, I'd put Hitler first, Osama 2nd, Jonestown 3rd and Waco 4th.

But if it was listed in order of gruesomeness, I'd have to put Manson pretty close to the top.

Boy I have to say, what Jim Jones and David Koresh did was pretty damn bad. The only difference between the two is that Jim either had more time to recruit more followers, or he was a better con artist than Vernon.

Mary said...

Hey y'all...I know this is a topic from another thread but I am just catching up with all posts and comments.

What does everyone have against Bugliosi - besides being a media whore...which most people are from LA...what is everyone's beef with him?

katie8753 said...

HI MARY!!! Where you been girl??? I thought maybe you were having trouble getting on or something. Good to see you.

I have nothing against Bugliosi except for his latest book about there is no God, which I won't read so I really don't care.

Other than that, I think he did a bang up job prosecuting Charlie and making a jury believe the truth, that he brainwashed his "tribe" to kill, which in itself was quite a feat. He got convictions for all of them, to which I say to him "cudos"!!

If you're referring to the video with Sandy, that's a no-brainer. She's a whack job bitch that needs to go back to the trailer park and finish killing small animals. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Oh, speaking of Charlie, look at this picture. He looks like a spoiled child with his lower lip stuck out, mad cuz he didn't get his way.

He's all crumpled up in that chair like a spineless idiot.

And you can clearly see Sandy & Squeaky behind him to the right, laughing with glee.

I guess that's the part where they were describing the stabbings, shootings and clubbings.

Yeah Sandy, that's really funny stuff! Sicko.

http://www.life.com/gallery/30702/image/50655440#index/10

katie8753 said...

OK when you go to that link, scroll one to the right. LOL.

v717 said...

I miss one lair. I think definitely PENTAGON should be number one on the list.
Poor Charlie Manson don´t have a chance against the guys in that lair.

Mary said...

Hey Katie - this has just been a really crappy week. Nothing has worked right...including Google!

I think Bug did a great job too. I have just heard many derogatory things about him on these boards...so I wasn't sure if I missed something. I was hoping some of those who have been very vocal in their displeasure of him and how he handled this case would let me know what I missed.

katie8753 said...

>>>V717 said: I miss one lair. I think definitely PENTAGON should be number one on the list.
Poor Charlie Manson don´t have a chance against the guys in that lair.>>>

Huh???? "Poor Charlie Manson"? What does the Pentagon have to do with this case. Doesn't make any sense. I think you need to call BR-549.

>>>Mary said: Hey Katie - this has just been a really crappy week. Nothing has worked right...including Google!>>>

I'm sorry you're having a bad week. I hope everything's okay.

>>>I think Bug did a great job too. I have just heard many derogatory things about him on these boards...so I wasn't sure if I missed something. I was hoping some of those who have been very vocal in their displeasure of him and how he handled this case would let me know what I missed.>>>

I love your spunk!!! I'm right there with you!!

Well I think he beat all odds convicting Charlie. When I think of the monumental task of convincing a jury that he "controlled" these freaks and made them kill perfect strangers, and then accomplished this task, my hat's off to him.

Charlie did indeed brainwash these losers into killing for him. That's an undisputed fact and for Bugliosi to convince a jury of that was monumental.

Of course, it helped his case a lot that Charlie, et al, continually acted like morons, carving, singing, laughing, and generally making the jury sick to their stomachs.

I guess Charlie thought that he could control the jury too.

Guess again Chuckie! HA HA.

I hope that whoever you're talking about that was bad-mouthing Bugliosi will explain that to you. I'm not quite sure who that was.

katie8753 said...

I just want to say one more thing, then I'm heading off to never, never land.

Stockholm Syndrome is a psychological syndrome that is prevalent in the case of a "captive".

Patty Hearst was a captive. This certainly applies to her.

Stockholm Syndrome is a condition in which the victim starts identifying with the captor. It is a defense mechanism.

Not to be confused with brainwashing. They are very closely identified, with very different procedures.

It is indeed possible to brainwash someone.

Isolation is the key point. Without that, it's impossible to accomplish your goal. Without isolation, the constant input from the "real world" will repudiate your goal. Once you establish isolation, you start inserting certain values, whether or not believed by the victim, but you have to use the "reward/punishment" system to infuse that value system. You also have to evalute every individual that you plan to "brainfuck" to see what his/her needs are, and perform that function.

Once you have used that in enough time (depending on the victim, could be 2 weeks to 6 months), it will eventually start to adhere.

And this isn't from Wiki. This is from me.

OK more later.

Ciao.

katie8753 said...

And Tex Watson was "brainfucked". I can guarantee you all that!!

MrPoirot said...

katie8753 said...
And Tex Watson was "brainfucked". I can guarantee you all that!!

May 19, 2011 7:46 PM

Mr Poirot replies:

If you look at pics of the killers at their capture you can see they all had been subjected to a hippie-hell. They's swallowed and smoked everything they could find. They sucked up every piece of left wing propaganda on the horizon. They had eaten out of dumpsters.
Yea their brains were all damaged. It's difficult to tell if Tex was more deranged than the others. Sadie looked pretty bad too. I don't think her mind ever came back to her.

rfoster1 said...

Well, phttt!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Mary!
Great to see Ya!
Sorry you had a rough week.

I can't speak for anyone else... but my take on Bugliosi is something like this:

I believe Bugliosi was a brilliant lawyer.
If I needed a lawyer in the 1970's, 80's, 90's... up to around 2005... I would have been very happy to land Bugliosi.
The man received his law degree from UCLA, where he was president of his graduating class.
He won 105 of 106 felony cases as a prosecutor, which included winning 21-out-of-21 murder cases.
That's a 99.0566% success rate, as a lawyer.
So... he was a great lawyer.
I don't see how anyone can dispute that fact.

The flip side:
I think in recent years, the man has unfortunately lost a few steps, if not a few marbles.
His latest book... disproving God, doesn't interest me in the least, and I think he'd do well, to just enjoy his retirement.

Also... he can be hard to stomach on these talk shows.
It seems being a top-notch lawyer, does not always translate well, into being a good tabloid tv guest. LOL
Maybe, that's to be expected.
Is "Megalo-maniac" really a word?
Patti Tate comes across a bit more pleasant, humble, and reserved than Bugliosi.
I enjoyed Patti, more on the show, than Bugliosi.
But then again, Patti surely couldn't have successfully prosecuted several defendents simultaneously.
So... "It is, what it is".

Bottom line:
I have immense respect for Bugliosi's talents and accomplishments as a professional lawyer.
On a personal level, he can be annoying.
A large ego... dominating personality... and the ability to make things "large and obvious", are great tools in the courtroom... maybe not so much on talk-show television.

That's my two cents.
Everyone else, feel free to weigh-in, with your thoughts on Bugliosi.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Good point Poirot.

A picture does say 1,000 words, doesn't it?

I was actually looking at those "Faces of Meth" videos on YouTube the other night.
It's "before and after" photos of folks who are addicted to meth.
Most of them are police mug shots.

What's amazing, is that many of the photos are only taken, one year apart... but, you wouldn't even know it was the same person, in the two photos.

That stuff can tear you up.

Richard said...

I've been going over your site for sometime, an just wanted to say I'm finding it very interesting not to mention entertaining. I particularly enjoy the comment section. I decided after lurking around so long I should thank someone. So Thank You

St. Circumstance said...

Mary- Hello :)

I have never posted anything about Bugs too negative. I have no opinion of him outside the case at all- despite all I have heard- who knows what he is really like...

It seems he had a great trial record as L/S points out- but I think anyone could have won that case...

It seems his greatest contribution to the case was amplifying Helter Skelter as a catchphrase for the next 40 something years- based on some things he heard from Paul Watkins and a few others....

Who knows why so many people have a problem with Bugs...

He may be a bad guy- but was not the bad guy in that case...

certainly he was a very accomplished lawyer- and it is not his fault Tex isn't 9 feet under by now...

katie8753 said...

Hi Richard. I'm glad you enjoy this blog. Please feel free to join in with your comments anytime!!

katie8753 said...

>>>Circumstance said: It seems he had a great trial record as L/S points out- but I think anyone could have won that case...>>>

HA HA. You're probably right. It was a "slam dunk" with all that looniness!!

>>>certainly he was a very accomplished lawyer- and it is not his fault Tex isn't 9 feet under by now...>>>

No it's not his fault that they're not all 9 feet under by now.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello Richard!!!!
Welcome to the blog, and thanks for the compliments.

The comments section, is my favorite part of any blog as well.
I was just saying the other day... chatting with the visitors/regulars, is still the best part of the experience for me.

I would highly encourage you to become a "regular".
I'd estimate, eighty percent of bloggers, start-out as "lurkers".
It's very common, if not the "norm".
Heck, I could list quite a few folks, whom I personally pushed from "lurkdom" into full-fledged "blogdom" over time.
I won't mention any names, as not to embarrass anyone.
OK... maybe a couple.
The infamous "Baby Alice" stuck around, and took an avatar at my suggestion... and thanked me many times.
Bedpan, blogged without an avatar for a long time... until I suggested he go the extra mile, and find a real Bedpan. LOLOL
Well... if you're gonna use the name right? LOL

Have at it Richard!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Circumstance is correct, in that, Manson and company, may not have been Bugliosi's toughest lifetime conviction... likely it wasn't.
For better or worse, Bug will forever be defined as the lawyer who put Manson away.
Bugliosi certainly seems Okay with it (and the money it brought, LOL)... so, I guess that's what matters.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

The irony here, is that selling a "conspiracy" case against Manson to the jury, could have been a difficult task... but, the family themselves, assisted Bugliosi.
Everything the family did and said, demonstrated to the jury, that Manson was "in-charge"... (which was obviously the "cruxt" of Bug's case against Manson).
The family aided Bugliosi immensely, with their behavior... no doubt.

Marliese said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

Marliese said:
[quote]I think the biggest thing though, regardless that he didn't have to prove motive, is that some believe he succeeded in getting convictions by sticking too rigidly to the HS script, which may have blurred the entire truth.[end quote]

Mr Poirot says:

In court Charlie certainly played right into the Helter Skelter motive. The Family was always talking about killing pigs after Charlie got on his HS bent.

It's also true that TLB was a copycat murder.

The Family was short on money and the cops were hassling them till paranoia reigned.

Charlie was pissed off that Melcher and Wilson weren't going to record his music.

There was no shortage of motives.

Marliese said...

Mary, hi, I'm an Angeleno, transplanted from NY a hundred years ago, and love LA! Los Angeles has truly been the City of Angels for me; we're not all media whores...you can be anything you want to be in LA. :)

You're brave to ask about Bugliosi. I can't speak for anyone else, but from what I've read like everyone else, it's his obsessive control and insistence on the 'igniting HS' motive. And then there's the ongoing obscene amount of money he's made off the case, as well as the hypocrisy in his personal life...he was apparently investigated for an alleged assault in an alleged domestic violence attack, but it was dropped when the alleged victim refused to cooperate. Not clear on the details there.

I think the biggest thing though, regardless that he didn't have to prove motive, is that some believe he succeeded in getting convictions by sticking too rigidly to the HS script, which may have blurred the entire truth.

Marliese said...

Absolutely, Mr. Poirot, no shortage of motives. I don't think the girls knew, other than Van Houten believing we have to do something to get bobby out. Since there won't ever be any snitching from those that do know, we'll likely never know the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Sorry for the delete earlier, Lynyrd. Only way I could edit a big typo was to delete and republish. :)

Mary said...

Marliese said " I'm an Angeleno, transplanted from NY a hundred years ago, and love LA! Los Angeles has truly been the City of Angels for me; we're not all media whores...you can be anything you want to be in LA. :)"

LOL! I thought about that after I pushed publish...I probably shouldn't have categorized an entire city based on what I see and hear on TV. I have family that lives in the LA area and they love it too! I am much more of a San Francisco kinda gal...love, love, love that city!

katie8753 said...

It's amazing how after almost 42 years, we still don't know the motives for any of these crimes.

We all have an opinion though! :)

Marliese said...

Katie, very true, so many opinions, many recasting the killers as martyrs and victims. Charlie Manson and his neglectful childhood, ain't it awful. Please.

Then there's Rosemary Labianca, the drug dealer. Show me the evidence! Because she made money? Not factual enough. Sharon Tate and her baby, collateral damage, as in indirectly and unintentional. "look bitch, I don't care if you're gonna have a baby, you're gonna die and you better be ready" doesn't sound indirectly to me, does it to you? :)

Marliese said...

Hi Mary, i know what you meant about LA. :) I get defensive about LA because I love it so much. I love the comfort of the sun and the bountiful four growing seasons. i love being an hour away from the snow, the desert, the ocean, the mountains, the smell of Eucalyptus and orange blossoms and best of all, the amazing people that live here. There's someone close to everyone's home never far away.

katie8753 said...

>>>Marliese said: Katie, very true, so many opinions, many recasting the killers as martyrs and victims. Charlie Manson and his neglectful childhood, ain't it awful. Please.>>>

I know. It's ad nauseum!

>>>Then there's Rosemary Labianca, the drug dealer. Show me the evidence! Because she made money? Not factual enough. >>>

I don't know where someone came up with Rosemary being a drug dealer. What nonsense.

Just like so many other theories that have no basis in reality!!