Tuesday, May 10, 2011

John Waters Says His Book Helped a Manson Girl
By Nicki Gostin Posted May 10th 2011 11:30AM
John Waters, the fabulously subversive director who brought us Divine, gave Johnny Depp his first big movie break and the original 'Hairspray' has given us another treat: The paperback version of his collection of essays, 'Role Models,' which is just like the title says, a grouping of Waters's favorite role models.  We wasted no time asking the directing legend about his most controversial role model, Leslie Van Houten, a Manson girl.  Waters argues that Van Houten has "great remorse" for her crimes and should be released.  "She should have gone to jail, but she's been in jail for forty years. It's not like nothing happened to her."  He says his chapter on her has improved her living conditions in jail, even.

How did the book come about? 
When the Tennessee Williams memoirs came out they asked me to write the intro and he was a real role model for me so I got the idea that really I had so many role models so I started making a list and it came together very quickly.

The controversial one would be Leslie Van Houten, one of the Manson girls?
Yes, but Leslie has told me she has felt a great change in the visitor's room and from the guards since the book has been published. Her family was grateful because let's face it nobody has written anything nice about any of them. That chapter was my pleading for her to be released. I also brought up the worst things that the victim's relatives said about her release which I felt I had to do in order to be fair.

What do you say to the victims children?
I don't say anything to them. I say they can never be wrong because I'm fighting this from society's view point not from a personal view point and I can never address them. I don't feel it's my place to do that. There are people who have forgiven. Could I? I don't know. But I think you have to realize is that Leslie was with a mad man when she was 17 but as one of the victim's nieces said, 'I took LSD and I didn't kill anybody,' and so did I. There's not a fair answer to this question except I do believe that she has great remorse. She should have gone to jail, but she's been in jail for forty years. It's not like nothing happened to her. She hasn't just been sitting there. She's tried to make a life for herself, the best she could with this horrible thing that she did that she can never take back. All she can do is make herself a better person than she would have been hadn't this crime happened and I think she probably has.

Do you regret dedicating 'Pink Flamingos' to three Manson girls?
I regret that I was so flippant in a punk rock way, certainly Marilyn Manson did the same thing but at that time certainly I did not pay any respect to the victims and treated it almost as if it wasn't real as if it was a movie or an art project. After I taught in prison I started to really realize the effects on the families of the victims and the families of the killers. None of those people who were in the Manson family that I know had really terrible parents, they were horrified. That was every parent's nightmare what happened to them and their kids met the biggest pimp conman in the world who was really good at it. I was at the trial and he was incredibly charismatic then and it was electrifying and frightening. I can see how as a group how the insanity built and how it could have seemed appealing at the time. In the beginning it was not violent but by the time he turned them to violence they were too far gone.  Article Submitted by Mary!  Thanks Mary!  You Rock!! 

47 comments:

St. Circumstance said...

I read this book- and he makes a great case for LULU- and you know what...

I dont care if they let her out or not...

I dont think she would hurt anyone, or be a threat in any way- I think she would go quietly and live out her life with some sort of dignity somewhere in oblivion...

But that wont ever happen- and that fact doesn't bother me in the least

St. Circumstance said...

LULU did some really really bad things, and was supposed to die for it..

She used to do interviews and write letters predicting when she would be released based on the " matrix" system they used at the time..

She figured this was all a matter pf process, and that she would get out at some point..

Now she is realizing, like the rest of them, that what happened was no joke- and she is not going anywhere...

and I just dont feel any pity....

Mary said...

yes, St. I agree. I understand that she feels she should be let out because she found Jesus and has changed..blah, blah, blah....

But, Leslie still says her crime was that she stabbed a dead woman...does that sound like taking responsibility?

I don't think she would harm anyone now either...but is that the only point - she has not taken responsibility and has blamed others instead of owning her own actions - whether Rosemary LiBianca was dead when she stabbed her or not...her intention was to inflict harm and death upon another human being - how does she know that all the stab wounds that belonged to Leslie were postmortem!

I thought that one of the qualifications of parole is that you accept responsibility and show remorse for what you did AND proven that you are rehabilitated. I don't see all of those qualifications as being met.

St. Circumstance said...

John Waters Does though- he even had Johnny Depp file forms to visit her...

And he used to make Manson references in his movies and even dedicated one the the girls..

What a swell guy- who also makes movies with Transexuals who eat shit..

He surely must understand ...

St. Circumstance said...

I'll go find the link of a special done for television in the early 80's where they show LULU smiling sitting in a prison class speaking out and laughing- she talks with a reporter and assures them that she will be out by the time she is in her early 30's- she never expected to pay for this- she grew up waiting to be released...

Cruel how life can be huh LULU??

St. Circumstance said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imYujz3wAn4

from BPT

katie8753 said...

"But I think you have to realize is that Leslie was with a mad man when she was 17..."

If John Waters is going to open his yap defending horseteeth, then he needs to get his facts straight. Leslie was almost 20 years old when she "only stabbed a dead lady 16 times".

16 times. That's a lot of stabbing. Dead or alive. Does it matter?

Leslie was a willing participant in this crime. She practically begged to go. Afterward, she gleefully rifled thru Rosemary's closet, picking out a "cool outfit" to change into.

Onto the fridge for a snack, after wiping down the house for prints.

Then the little "hoor" couldn't wait to "cock tease" a strange guy to get a ride back to the ranch.

Poor little HS princess. What a hard life. Boo fucking hoo.

John Waters doesn't like it that the victim's families don't have anything nice to say about his "new hobby"? Cry me a frickin' river.

She's going to stay in until she rots. That's her karma.

Thanks Circumstance. I'll check out that video.

Thanks Mary for the article. This bag is one of those subjects that I have a lot to say about! HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I LOVE the passion of this group!
AHahahaha

You guys rock!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

S/C said>>>>
"What a swell guy- who also makes movies with Transexuals who eat shit...
He surely must understand" ...

LMAO

MrPoirot said...

leslie cts weird at her parole hearings. She makes demands and attempts manipulation. she basically becomes a hee hawing jackass in her hearings and sees nothing wrong with that.

Mary said...

thanks St...in this clip when she says wishes she could have done something to prevent the crimes from happening - and the interviewer told her that she could have prevented it but she choose not to...the look on her face was priceless - SHE JUST DOES NOT GET IT AND NEVER WILL!

May she rot in prison and then in hell!

Mary said...

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that last sentence...emotion got the best of me...it does not good to wish others harm

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

In regards to the video Saint recommended:

At 3min. 30 sec., Les discusses the eye contact exchange between her father and Manson in the courtroom.
She explains it with a big smile, and ends the thought with a giggle.
Some eery, twisted shit.
If it was my father, I certainly wouldn't be relating that memory with a smile... let alone 17 years after-the-fact.
She doesn't seem to have made much progress, when this footage was shot (1987).
She's kinda laughing throughout actually.
Les to the interviewer:
"You make it sound like I had a choice"????
WTF?

Mary said...

EXACTLY!

katie8753 said...

If you look at Pat Krenwinkel & Leslie Van Skanston and compare the 2, you see 2 very different types of people.

Pat was a decent and caring person in her teens, although homely & lonely. Charlie took advantage of that and made her feel loved, thereby turning her into a total devotee, hopefully for life. She didn't realize that it was just another con for Charlie, she believed all that crap.

Leslie on the other hand was attractive and popular in HS, having lots of boyfriends. There's no reason on God's green earth that she should have taken up with Charlie, except that, like Charlie, I believe that Leslie is a Sociopath.

I truly believe that Leslie had serious psychological issues way BEFORE she met Charlie.

Now to present time....Pat, I believe, is truly remorseful and sorry for her actions. Her tears at parole hearings move me, because I think they're sincere. I think she knows that she will never get out, and has accepted that, and truly believes that she doesn't deserve to.

LuLu on the other hand, is constantly trying to find some guy to "champion her" in order to get out. She sits there thru all the parole hearings and giggles when talking about events that should make someone shudder.

She has no love or loyalty to anyone but herself, and that includes her own family.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I agree...
I find Pat, the most credible... and the most genuine, in terms of remorse.
She's not one to exaggerate.

I would never release/parole Pat.
But... I do think she has her head on straight, is remorseful, and is a credible witness to the events (as she remembers them, from her perspective).

MrPoirot said...

St. Circumstance said...
John Waters Does though- he even had Johnny Depp file forms to visit her...

And he used to make Manson references in his movies and even dedicated one the the girls..

What a swell guy- who also makes movies with Transexuals who eat shit..

He surely must understand ...

May 10, 2011 1:59 PM

Mr Poirot replies:

Good point. John Waters isn't exactly the voice of sanity. He's just another kook who hunts fame from Manson infamy.

katie8753 said...

Okay this is one of Bret's videos about Skankston.

It's about her re-trial, due to the fact that she was misrepresented because Ronald Hughes disappeared.

I'm sure she thought she was gonna be free as a bird.

But then the cell door finally clanked shut for the last time. Thank God for justice. LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoVO_QUD934

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: Good point. John Waters isn't exactly the voice of sanity. He's just another kook who hunts fame from Manson infamy.>>>

Indeed. Just another hanger on. I think this guy just likes to indulge in the bizarre.

Next he'll claim to have been invited to a party at Cielo Drive on August 8th and he had to beg off. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Great footage Katie, Thanks.

MrPoirot said...

I find it hilarious that Leslie requested the judge let her fire Ronald Hughes and then says his death caused her not to receive a fair trial. She wanted Hughes fired because he didn't want Leslie to take the blame for Charlie while she demanded to take the blame.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: I find it hilarious that Leslie requested the judge let her fire Ronald Hughes and then says his death caused her not to receive a fair trial. She wanted Hughes fired because he didn't want Leslie to take the blame for Charlie while she demanded to take the blame.>>>

It's hilarious, ironic, and yet subliminal, that she requested that Ronald Hughes be fired (at Charlie's request), and then suddenly he disappears.

Accident??? We'll never know.

She thought she was olly-olly-in-free. She thought that she was going to be as free as a bird.

What was that Beatles' song, "And Your Bird Can Sing".

Well that bird is singing loud and long. HA HA.

katie8753 said...

"What does sorry mean? It's only a 5-letter word."

Leslie Van Houten

Pristash said...

I'm ambivalent. I think most of them could be released and they would pose no problem to society. But then the desire for vengeance would be somewhat thwarted. Victims' families getting all dissed, etc. It is indeed a conundrum.

I wonder what JimNY thinks of Waters having this book released in paperback. More publicity for Waters, at least for a little while longer.

And the evilliz people have locked up the ability to comment on their blog. So they won't be hearing from me no more. No more nuggets of wisdom from starship allowed...

katie8753 said...

Hi Pristash. I agree that if they were released, they probably wouldn't hurt anyone. But, as they say in the parole hearings, "due to the heinous nature of their crimes", they should just stay put.

Jimmy was very upset with LVH taking up with Waters, but I think he's moved on to something else now. LOL.

You're welcome to bestow your knowledge of this case here anytime!!! Good to see you.

Matt said...

Pristash, eviliz.com isn't locked-down, we just don't have your email address to invite you to participate. Please email it to the address on the blog and I'll send you an invite. Same for anyone else.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Pristash said>>>>
"I'm ambivalent. I think most of them could be released and they would pose no problem to society. But then the desire for vengeance would be somewhat thwarted. Victims' families getting all dissed, etc. It is indeed a conundrum".<<<<

I agree.
I doubt most of them would pose a significant risk to society, at this point.
But, then again (as you suggested), retribution is also one of the main purposes of incarceration, as well... beyond just rehabilitation.

For the sake of discussion...
I believe Manson could still pose a risk to society... not so much for what he would do personally... but, for what he could potentially inspire a few weak-brained folks to do... albeit, unintentionally even.
I don't believe he's well mentally, even after 40+ years.
My opinion, and that point, is moot however, as his prison behavior (and other factors), will never make him a serious candidate for parole anyway.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Celtics-Heat tonight. Game 5.

Celtics are down 3-1.

It's not looking good at all... but, I still gotta watch!

Anyone know the statistical chances of an NBA team winning, after being down 3-1?
5%? 7%?

bobby said...

zero


just teasing !

bobby said...

St. C, I like your avatar. If the season takes place it will be my 31st year as a Buffalo Bills season ticket holder. I have been on the sidelines just twice. Last year they did a pre game ceremony for vets from all wars going back to WWII, of which my father took part. It was the proudest day of my life.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

NBA Picks: Celtics at Heat Predictions

Only eight teams have rallied from 3-1 to win a series in NBA playoff history and Boston has done it twice (both against the Sixers). It won’t be three times. Like the Lakers, this team just looks old and fatigued. When Miami’s Big 3 has combined for at least 80 points this year the Heat are pretty much unbeatable, going 14-1. I do believe that Boston will show some heart, unlike the Lakers in their first elimination game. So while Miami wins, take Boston and the points and the ‘over’.


From:
http://www.docsports.com/2011/nba-picks-celtics-heat-game-5-odds-predictions-356.html

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Evidently... it's been done 8 times.
Twice by the Celtics.

It's not gonna happen though.
The Celtics have two obstacles, and neither has anything to do with the Heat's talent.
1) The Celtic's are out of gas.
The guy's just don't have the stamina left at their age.
2) Maybe more importantly... with Shaq injured, and Perkins (stupidly) traded, we don't have a "big body" in the middle.
That's the same reason the Lakers beat us last year.
We had no center for to wear down guys like Bynum, Artest, Gasol and Odom.
When will they ever learn?!

St. Circumstance said...

Bobby- it sounds like it was a great day!!

my hat is off to your father- and all others who help defend our country!!

Marv levy was one of my all time favorite football people- and Bruce Smith/ Daryl Talley and Cornelius Bennet w/ Shane Conlon was a sick defense...

I wish they had gotten one of the 4 they were good enough to make it to!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sorry Bob...

I'm at work, and missed part of your post.

My Dad also served in WWII.
He was in the pacific (Navy), fighting the Japanese.
He was awarded the WWII Victory Ribbon, The Asciatic-Pacific Ribbon with 5 Stars, and the American Area Ribbon.
When he passed-away, the Navy sent a 3-man contingent to his funeral... played Taps, and folded the Flag (which was on his casket),and presented it to my Mom.
I bought a special glass case for it... and it's displayed in her living room.
They also installed a square stone, from the Navy on his grave.
A great source of pride for sure brother!

Thanks Bob for your Dad's service to our nation.

bobby said...

Thank you for sharing that Lynyrd. They really are the greatest generation !

Lynn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lynn said...

I missed the B in Bobby when copying it into the comments but that is EXACTLy how the e-mail came to me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey Lynn... great to see you!

Hope you're feeling better. : )

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello Pristash...

You asked:>>>>
"I wonder what JimNY thinks of Waters having this book released in paperback. More publicity for Waters, at least for a little while longer.<<<<

Jim contacted me, with a reply to your question.
He asked me to forward an e-mail message to you.
Jim says he's given-up blogging, and will only communicate via e-mail, or on Youtube.
I told him you wouldn't likely be sharing an e-mail address... so, Jim suggested you open a temporary YouTube account.
At any rate Pristash... it doesn't matter in the least to me, whether you follow-up with Jim or not.
That's your choice.
I told Jim, I'd relay his message... and I did.
If you wanna share a YouTube account at any point with Jim, for these purposes... let me know... and I'll get that information to him.
If not... that's cool too.
It's none of my business, either way.
I told him I'd relay the message to you... nothing more, nothing less.

Peace... Lynyrd

bedpan25 said...

oh no! you got katie8753 started on lulu. lol!

didn't leslie change her story about the goings-on of aug 9 a few times? one was something about how/why she ended up rifling thru rosemary's clothes. 'because tex told me to' was one reason given, but another time it was 'because tex wanted to wear my jeans!' haha! how the hell could tex fit into her jeans? even if he COULD squeeze into them, they'd barely come down to below his knees!

and i agree with katie and lyryrd on pat vs. lvh.

pat appears genuine and credible when she speaks with deep remorse about the appalling murders in which she participated. just look at the expression of HORROR on her face as she speaks of them.

leslie. . .she attempts to diminish her role in the labianca murders, and even given her acting skills, fails to sound convincing if/when she accidentally happens to slip in something which vaguely resembles remorse.

also katie, lvh has lost her looks - - so i seriously doubt she'll be able to woo any more knights in shining armor to come to her rescue!

katie8753 said...

Hi Bedpan! Yes, Leslie did say at one of her parole hearings that the reason she had to pilfer Rosemary's clothes is because she had to give her jeans to Tex.

Steven Kay had a hay-day with that comment. They really yucked it up over that one.

Tex would have to lay on the bed to zip those up. HA HA.

Well LuLu, keep on thinking. Maybe someday you'll come up with a good reason for stealing your victim's clothes. Maybe John Waters has a few good ideas. LOL.

Pristash said...

Thanks, everybody. Perhaps I can find Jim's youtube account and check him out.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bedpan said>>>>
"oh no! you got katie8753 started on lulu. lol!"<<<<

I know huh?
You start a thread on Leslie, and it's usually good for 12 or more posts from Katie. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I contacted the "google help forum" (usually worthless).
They informed me, they were doing "maintenance" and it created numerous problems/complaints in the last 24 hours.
Who knows...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

My apologies to anyone who lost comments on this thread.
We lost about 17 great comments due to the recent "Google Meltdown".

I'm sorry... it was beyond my control.

If I remember correctly:
Those who lost comments were Pristash, Circumstance, Ruckas, Poirot, Katie, Bob and myself.

Sorry, if I forgot anybody.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, you forgot Bedpan. But this is not your fault. It's Google's.

bedpan25 said...

crap! i finally leave another comment, and google's meltdown eats it! haha! yeah, i tried to log on LAST night too, but to no avail. and google's information only mentioned maintenance which would cause a harmless 'read only' status for a short time. wrong!

oh well, my comment was some of the same old griping about lvh. like how she'd change her story on her involvement in the labianca murders. for example, how/why she rifled thru rosemary's clothing. one time it was more or less 'because tex told me to.' another time it was because 'tex wanted to wear my blue jeans.' seriously?? assuming tex could even squeeze into them, they'd still hit him just below the knees! was he planning to wade thru the creek behind spahn ranch later on? lol

i think the last line of it was something like 'katie, leslie has lost her looks now. she won't be able to woo any more knights in shining armor to come to her rescue.'