Tuesday, May 31, 2011

Book Club Discussion #3
Ed Sanders, "The Family", Pages 43-66
Sanders devotes the first four pages of this section, convincing us (or trying anyway), that by the spring of ’68, the family was heavily influenced by several satanic-style sources/groups. He calls these influnces “sleazo inputs”.
I won’t get too deep into this, except to say, the words “devil worship”, “occult”, “circe group”, “black magic”, “black arts”, “reincarnation”, “rituals”, “blood”, “rite”… etc. etc, are all used ad-nauseum.  Well… Circumstance warned us. LOL

From there… Sharon Tate is introduced.  A brief bio of Sharon’s childhood, and education is coverd, as well as her budding career as an actress.

Jay Sebring is introduced… “hairdresser to the stars”, etc, etc.  Sharon and Jay’s relationship is covered.  From here Roman enters the picture, and meets Sharon.  The next several pages cover several of Polanski and/or Sharon’s more notable films.  This part was interesting: “Polanski acquired a new-fangled video camera (camcorder basically), that he used to shoot instantly analyzable preliminary takes on the set. Fun indeed, perhaps the beginning of Polanski’s purported talent for gathering a collection of strange, humorous and even erotic videotapes”.  Sharon and Roman marry… etc.

Next… we get into Manson’s music.  Wilson and Melcher are covered quite extensively.

In the summer of ’68, Manson records music at the studio, located in the home of Beach Boy Brian Wilson (Dennis’ brother).  Manson blows it all, by wielding a knife several times, while in the studio.  Stephen Despar, who built the studio, and the engineer in-charge of recording Manson, called the Beach Boy’s manager after witnessing this… and further sessions were called-off. Way to go Charlie!

Also of note: Sanders mentions that Manson has said…”I was at the Cielo Drive house about 5 times, and used to wheel around in Melcher’s jaguar”.  Sanders also mentions: Rudi Altobelli (Melchers landlord) testified at Manson’s trial, that “Terry (Melcher) and Gregg Jakobson, were always talking about Manson, and his philosophy”.


According to Sanders, Melcher and Wilson would call John Phillips (Mamas and Papas) several times, to “come on over” and listen to Manson’s music… describing it as “incredible”.  Phillips explains he would “shudder every time” and “take a pass”.  This chunk of the book closes with Sanders explaining that the Beach Boys recorded Charlie’s song “Cease To Exist” on 9-11-68, under the title, “Never Learn To Love”… for their album 20/20.  They also changed the lyrics significantly.

118 comments:

katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...
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katie8753 said...

As far as I can see, Charlie has no one to blame for his failure in the music arena but himself.

He certainly had a good "foot in the door" with Melcher, Jakobson and the Beach Boys, but he had to blow it with all his "Charlie-meister" routines.

If he had been seriously pursuing a musical career he should have just played his music and stopped all the "look at me" antics.

katie8753 said...

Charles Manson in The Monkees??? HA HA HA.

I guess he was short enough to play Davy Jones part, but they'd have to rename "Daydream Believer" to "Better Not Go To Sleep". LOL.

bobby said...

http://workingsofevil.com/ebooks/john.todd/Helter%20Skelter%20Run%20For%20Shelter/John%20Todd%20s%20Helter%20Skelter%20Run%20For%20Shelter%20Part%204.html

While looking for all the "cults" Charlie was visiting i found this interesting read.

bobby said...

http://www.cultsecretsrevealed.com/

For just $39.95 you too can learn to be a cult leader!!

St. Circumstance said...

FYI to all of my friends who are interested in this occult aspect...


The Process Church sued Sanders and won, so all subsequent editions of the book after the suit- removed chapters and references to the Process and its founders- Robert/Maryann Degrimston...

If it is still up- Charlie Manson .com has the deleted chapters and pages available for reading...

After reading them- you will understand a lot better the references you are now reading to " Circe" and Dogs, and such...

He makes many references to them throughout the book- which wont make sense, or wont even be noticed if you dont know the history of this group...

It may be worth a quick google for those of you who are not familiar with The Process Church of final judgement...

Also in the shitty Gorightly book- Shadows over Santa Susana- he summarizes this in pages 59 through 61 and points out that when The Process sued the British publishers- they lost. So-at least one court thought some of the facts about them were provable as true...

He also claims in this book that Sanders went into hiding for awhile after the publishing- but who knows if that is true???

katie8753 said...

Hi Circumstance.

It seems that Sanders is making references to several different satantic groups, other than The Process Church.

Was "Circe" involved in the Process Church or a different group whatsoever?

Was The Process Church the only group who sued?

katie8753 said...

Hi Bobby. Interesting reading!

Lynyrd, here's your chance to get "Charlie's Handbook" and be a cult leader for only $39.95!!!

HA HA.

St. Circumstance said...

He is also referring to the Kirke Order of Dog blood and Braytons Solar lodge as well- you are right..

But by far most of the references are to the Process...

Circe was the code name for Maryanne.. most of there disciples were not even allowed to see her lol

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>>
"Manson evidently pulled a knife on Brian Wilson while recording in his home (his wife didn't like Manson, et al, because she feared disease. Good thinking!!) and also pulled a knife on Despar, who was engineering Manson's recordings".<<<<

It doesn't say Manson "pulled a knife on Despar" specifically.
It says: "after a couple days of recording, Manson pulled out the blade, and would flash it around while talking".
Despar was witness to this... etc. etc., and called the beach Boys' manager, and furhter recording sessions were called off.
A subtle difference maybe... but, worth noting.

According to Greg Jakobson, Manson did however, hold a knife to Wilson's throat, and said "what would you do if I killed you".
Wilson reportedly shrugged and said, "Do it"... and Manson lowered the blade.
I had missed that part. LOL
You're right on that fact Katie... as told by Sanders... according to Jakobson. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Circumstance for your awesome information as usual.

St. Circumstance said...

Beginners guide to the Process for those with little time...

Here are things to know about them that you will see referenced in various ways by Sanders Book...

-Robert was a Tall Bonde
-They were English
They traveled with packs of Dogs- German Sheppards mostly
-Maryann was called Circe
-They were an offshoot of Scientology
-They refered to each other as Brother and sister ( this is important when you keep hearing about Brother Eli- who owned the leather shop you will hear about a couple of times)

bobby said...

St. C, I did some reading on the process church. Seems after they ousted DeGrimston they went through a couple name changes to become Best Friends Animal Society which is now one of America's best known animal welfare rescue groups.

It looks like they focused on the Animals part of ATWA. lol.

katie8753 said...

Circumstance, why exactly did the Process Church sue Sanders?

For revealing too much of their activities? For mentioning that Manson was a member?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks for your last post Circumstance.

It sorts-out a few things... as the words "english group" and "Circe", have already been used.
Sanders is evidently discussing/referencing these groups, as closely as he can, without actually using their names (as he evidently did in previous editions).

You obviously have a lot of knowledge in this area Saint.
Which leads me to one question.
What's your take on this Saint?
I mean specifically...
Do you think these groups (Process Church, etc), and their philosophies, are as big an influence on Manson... and as big a part of "family life", as Sanders proports?
Are these groups/influences... "sleazo inputs", as Sanders calls them... integral pieces of a puzzle, which lead these folks to becoming murderers?
OR... is this just good fodder for selling a book?
I've seen live footage of Paul Watkins... and Watkins really "plays-down" the influence of these groups, when asked directly.
In fact... he's almost downright dismissive about the notion.

St. Circumstance said...

Circe just died semi-recently. She was running it with another one of there leaders from back in the day- and you are right- It was not Robert. who was last heard of working in NYC for a bank or something like that...

now another book I wasted my time on was the Ultimate Evil- which says that the Process is still going in an underground form and they tie Son of Sam to Manson, and all of it through Process off shoots....

But it is funny they went from being a radical 60's group who walked around town in capes with German Sheppard- to a bunch of retirees taking care of pets on a farm in Oregon...

St. Circumstance said...

They brought a 1.5 million dollar libel suit...

St. Circumstance said...

L/S great question and it was something I was just about to post... let me take a breath lol

Paul Watkins is a great point...

St. Circumstance said...

2 answers to that question- my thoughts and something I want to point out that Watkins exemplifies perfectly...

St. Circumstance said...

first the other thing to point out-

Watkins was mostly around in the early stages of the Family- and according to all I have read- it was the early days of the family ( wandering stage) that they came across all of these people...
Yet the weren't doing anything weird yet- at least not violent or dark..

Which is why Watkins would say it wasn't much of a factor... Aside from bumping into these people- they weren't really living with, or following any of them- so at that point it wasn't much of an influence to the rest of them

It was later when they were settled and living only among themselves that things got weird ???

So hard to say it was THE factor- but was it some factor???

That's my second answer...

MrPoirot said...

Thanks for the book review.

In Emmon's bio on Charlie you will read that Charlie says The Spiral Staircase House is where the Family began to encounter EVIL. All kinds of blood letting and devil worship were going on there. Charlie never blames the Process Church or Scientology for the Familys descent into bedlam. He blames the people in The Spiral Staircase. Until the Family met up with the crowd in that weird house things were going well for the Family. Sadie was overwhelmed by the evil she encountered at that house. She absorbed all the bad aspects those weirdos were teaching at that house. She had no defenses for fighting off evil. There's no writing saying Robert Hendrickson was ever at The Spiral Staircase House yet Hendrickson was aware of the evil teachings the Family acquired there.

St. Circumstance said...

I think all of these things played a small part of the huge melting pot of ideas that Charlie drew from to make up his rap...

There are too many similarities between what he said, and what they preached/printed in there magazine to be coincidence. Just like he used street slang, and some Scientology terms- I think he threw it all in together and used whatever pieces he needed to make whatever point he was trying to push over at the time...

Charlie was older than the others- had met many more people, and was street smart enough to pick up on other peoples cons- he probably came across a few things from others he liked enough to keep as his own. I definitely think the Process was one of these instances..

He picked bits and pieces of the stuff he liked for his own cause...

St. Circumstance said...

You will find that Katie mentions meeting a Blond haired Englishman at the spiral Staircase house- in this very book I believe- if not I will find the source of that for you- but again it implies-Process was the source at the Spiral Staircase you are speaking of...

St. Circumstance said...

When you get to page 78 they will start to talk about Victor Wild... notice they also mention AKA " Brother Eli" you have to know- because they cant tell you- that is a Process term.. they tie him to Manson and Company a couple of times... in other things you can read about the Process- you know he was a devout Processian..

Page 44 of Sanders book at the bottom talks about Katie meeting the group at the Spiral Staircase house who worshiped both Satan and christ..

here is from the Process Church wiki page :

They were often viewed as Satanic on the grounds that they worshiped both Christ and Satan. Their belief is that Satan will become reconciled to Christ, and they will come together at the end of the world to judge humanity,


Now remember- he mentioned all the other groups by name except this one- and the one he mentions on the next page who is headed by a Circe- red haired English women...

I propose these are both references to the same group...

Who he couldn't mention except by these traits - which he hoped would spell it out...

St. Circumstance said...

Although- there is 0 actual proof that they ever did actually meet...

all of this- in fairness- is speculation on me that they met.

Katie could have been talking about a totally different group-

I am not saying he is right...

I am just saying this is what Sanders is trying to tell you..
What he wants you to believe..

Charlie Manson .com also points out nobody has done more to spread the idea that Charlie was involved with the process than Ed Sanders lol :

So, was Manson connected to The Process? Ed Sanders ("The Family") probably did more to further the belief of such a relationship than anyone. Sanders was sued by the group and had to remove material from future editions of his book. The loss of the lawsuit is a strong indicator that he had no backing proof of a connection.

Conclusion:

Many works on Manson have little original research and simply repeat the same stories over and over. For example, Maury Terry ("The Ultimate Evil") largely drew from Sanders legally-defeated material. It probably should be mentioned that Terry did so only after The Process had disbanded. The Process connection has been oft repeated but never proven. The Manson legend/myth has flourished in the media and he's everyone's favorite icon for evil. An out-of-the-ordinary cult connection is just the sort of material every tabloid dreams of. So, the story has grown and been repeated but not a single person has ever come forward to cash in with an eye-witness account.

St. Circumstance said...

But I still say- Charlie heard some of there stuff, or was exposed to it- at the very least...

and used some of the theories as his own...

St. Circumstance said...

Sorry for highjacking lol- to argue both sides of the same point..

but as I told you from day the start- Sanders tries to make this story even freakier than it is...

I guess he doesn't need me to help him

:)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said>>>>
"I think all of these things played a small part of the huge melting pot of ideas that Charlie drew from to make up his rap...
There are too many similarities between what he said, and what they preached/printed in there magazine to be coincidence. Just like he used street slang, and some Scientology terms- I think he threw it all in together and used whatever pieces he needed to make whatever point he was trying to push over at the time"...<<<<

I couldn't agree more Saint, and "melting pot of ideas", is a great way to express it.

Manson's "Rap" drew from several sources... whichever proved most useful, given the target audience.
I'm sure he had one "rap" when dealing with the Straight Satans... and another rap for dealing with Ruth Moorehouse... and yet another for George Spahn.
In essence, Manson had several "Raps"... a "bag of tricks" if you will... that he drew from as needed.
I also believe, he was building this "repertoire" regarding pimping and other subjects, while in prison... before he even hit the streets of Cali.
Once he hit the 60's streets of Cali... he drew from even more sources... i.e., the Process Church, etc.
Manson is a chameleon, who sizes-up his audience, and tells them what they want to hear.
Maybe he shoulda went into politics. : )

bobby said...

http://www.bestfriendsinfo.com/History.html

Check this site out. Seems not everyone is convinced that best friends has fully evolved.

MrPoirot said...

here is from the Process Church St C said:

wiki page :

They were often viewed as Satanic on the grounds that they worshiped both Christ and Satan. Their belief is that Satan will become reconciled to Christ, and they will come together at the end of the world to judge humanity,[end quote]

Mr Poirot replies:

This is called "softening" or "sweetning". Like putting sugar in cough syrup for a child. Just mix in a little christianity to devil worship to add legitimacy and sucker in the unsuspecting. You just don't walk up to a person and ask them to worship satan. You convert them in stages.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: In Emmon's bio on Charlie you will read that Charlie says The Spiral Staircase House is where the Family began to encounter EVIL.>>>

Sanders says the same thing, top of page 45. The people at the Spiral Staircase affected them in many ways, which later spiralled them into madness.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said>>>>
"Sorry for highjacking lol- to argue both sides of the same point"..<<<<

Don't be silly man.
Your posts are one of the best parts of this blog.
The more, the better.
Post your ass off! LOLOL

I wish I could continue... but, I gotta run.
Everyone... have at it!

BTW... Saint and Poirot are correct.
The Spiral Staircase (according to Sanders), was the hub, where they first encountered these groups.
He mentions that at the beginning of the book... and then more specifically, in the section we're now discussing.
I'll find the specific page, and quote(s) regarding the Spiral Staircase influence(s) later.

Peace everyone...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bob, thanks for your input.
You ROCK brother!

bobby said...

Lynyrd you are to kind, I'm typeless.

& it seems everyone else is too.

katie8753 said...

Bobby thanks for the links. I'm still reading.

Wow, these people will give you a headache will all their nonsense!! HA HA.

Do people really believe this stuff??

katie8753 said...

errrr...WITH all their nonsense...

HA HA.

bobby said...

Katie, I'm finding the bestfriends link pretty informative on the process history, there are some crazy peeps put there.

katie8753 said...

Bobby the Bestfriends link is what I'm reading. Trying to get thru it. Lots of distractions today. HA HA.

Interesting yes.

bobby said...

I know Katie, I am at work & the Sanders links are being blocked, wont be able to read them until tonight.

MrPoirot said...

Charlie holding a knife at Wilson's house kinda makes me think Charlie was already well into the grips of insanity. Who the hell pulls out a knife at a friends house? Charlie had lost more than his manners. He was exceeding societal boundries when his temper flaired. He was no longer in control of his actions. He's a train headed for a wreck at this point.

MrPoirot said...

He's coming down fast! LOL!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Poirot explained:
>>>>"Their belief is that Satan will become reconciled to Christ, and they will come together at the end of the world to judge humanity".
This is called "softening" or "sweetning". Like putting sugar in cough syrup for a child. Just mix in a little christianity to devil worship to add legitimacy and sucker in the unsuspecting. You just don't walk up to a person and ask them to worship satan. You convert them in stages".<<<<

Makes sense to me.
----------------------------------------

Poirot said>>>>
"He's coming down fast! LOL!"

LOL
Yeah... he came down fast alright... like a ton o' bricks. : )

katie8753 said...

WOW! We got an "LOL" out of Mr. P!!! HA HA.

I'm still reading and trying to get some stuff done. Will be back on to discuss probably this evening.

'til then!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

From time to time, we hear how Polanski allegedly filmed pornographic videos, with the hippie girls, as subjects.

I found it interesting, how Sanders subtly "eluded" to these videos.
I quote a portion, of this (related) passage in the thread (in green italic), at the end of my second paragragh.

Considering the fact that Roman was a movie producer... and a rapist/pedophile (Geimer)... it's not far-fecthed.

The full section where Sanders discusses this "camcorder" subject (which includes Mia Farrow) is the very first paragragh on page 54... for anyone interested.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK Poirot and Circumstance... here's another supportive quote, regarding the Spiral Staircase.

Page 44... end of 6th paragragh:

"Manson and some of his followers met leaders of this satanic society at the Spiral Staircase house in Topanga Canyon in late 1967".

Sanders later describes the group as an "english occult society".

St. Circumstance said...

Yes...

again- not sure it happened, or that they met ever- but it becomes very obvious that Sanders really did...

St. Circumstance said...

Believe so (as in Sanders really did)

katie8753 said...

Sanders mentions many satanic cults operating in different parts of California, but doesn't mention specifically if the family ever came in contact with them. Sounds like he's trying to describe what was available to join or listen to back then.

>>>Lynyrd said: In essence, Manson had several "Raps"... a "bag of tricks" if you will... that he drew from as needed.
I also believe, he was building this "repertoire" regarding pimping and other subjects, while in prison... before he even hit the streets of Cali.
Once he hit the 60's streets of Cali... he drew from even more sources... i.e., the Process Church, etc.>>>

I agree. I think Charlie gleaned whatever he needed from different sources to become what he became. Whatever was needed by each person.

I get the feeling that in listening to all this stuff from different people, he never really believed any of it. Just stored it away for future use to control current/future recruits to do his bidding.

katie8753 said...

I like John Lennon's reply to the maharishi, while leaving him when he found out he was nothing but a money-grubbing fake. HA HA.

I'd love to hear that 27 minute version of Helter Skelter with Blue Moon dubbed in. I wonder if that was ever released.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: Charlie holding a knife at Wilson's house kinda makes me think Charlie was already well into the grips of insanity. Who the hell pulls out a knife at a friends house?>>>

Just another example of why Charlie didn't make it in the music world. He had to have everything his way or the highway. It was his own fault he never got a record deal. He wasn't that good at singing, but he could have sold some lyrics if he hadn't been so "Charlie".

MrPoirot said...

Katie8753 said:

I get the feeling that in listening to all this stuff from different people, he never really believed any of it. Just stored it away for future use to control current/future recruits to do his bidding.

Mr Poirot replies:

Charlie learned all that stuff intending to be have better control of his hookers when he started pimping again upon release. He had no idea that the kids of the 60s were so much more impressionable than kids were in the 50s. I'll bet it blew his mind how much easier it was to use hippies than hookers.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: He had no idea that the kids of the 60s were so much more impressionable than kids were in the 50s. I'll bet it blew his mind how much easier it was to use hippies than hookers.>>>

You're right Mr. P. I didn't think about that but the 50's had a lot more morality and much less protesting than the 60's. He came out of prison just at the right time. Kids were looking for some type of leader who WASN'T their parent.

katie8753 said...

I saw Polanski's earlier films, Knife in the Water & Repulsion, and I thought they both sucked.

I got into a big argument with some guy on You Tube about that once. He said I didn't appreciate the enigmatics of foreign films. HA HA.

v717 said...

The house of the "spiral staircase"
is said to have been owned originally by the actor Bela Lugosi 1882-1956. But do anyone here knows who owned the house back in the sixties?
The rock group LOVE had on one of their first albums a photo, there you can see the group standing in a spiral staircase. It is said that the photo was taken in that house.

katie8753 said...

V717, I had read that the house at the Spiral Staircase belonged to Bela Lugosi too, but could never find any info that backed that up.

Does anyone else know?

v717 said...

Johnny Echols who played lead guitar in LOVE or as they first was known "The GRASS ROOTS" had an old friend by the name of Bobby Beausoleil, Bobby also went by the nickname name of "bummer Bob" because of all the strange drugs he was taking.
In fact Bobby occasionally dropped in and played with the group. But he was never a regular member of the band.

MrPoirot said...

Hendrickson is charging $100 effing dollars for Death To Pigs.

Where's the $100 dollars worth? I ain't hearing damn thing I haven't heard before. I already own Manson73 video.

Cmon! WHERE'S THE $100 WORTH OF INFO AND DETAILS?

bedpan25 said...

v717 said... Bobby occasionally dropped in and played with the group. But he was never a regular member of the band.

beausoleil's wikipedia entry disagrees with you.

'Circa 1965, Beausoleil was a member of Arthur Lee's band The Grass Roots (not The Grass Roots of "Midnight Confessions" and "Let's Live for Today" fame), which later changed its name to Love.'

but no source for that claim. that's wikipedia for you. and the entry for Love (band) doesn't mention beausoleil at all.

bedpan25 said...

MrPoirot... Hendrickson is charging $100 effing dollars for Death To Pigs.

wow! i'm not sure which is more shocking - - the $99.95 price tag, or the fact that hendrickson finally finished his book!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

S/C, the same thing again...

Page 23, at the bottom:

Patricia Krenwinkel in a later interview told how she'd first met at the Spiral Staircase members of an English-based satanic group that migrated to the USA, led, as she termed it, by a "blond-haired Englishman".

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

V717...

I don't have an actual name for the Spiral Staircase owner, but I have this...

"The Family", page 23, 5th paragragh, 2nd sentence:

Manson met the owner of the Spiral Staircase in San Francisco.
"She was a trippy broad, about forty-five years old," Manson describes her,"who experimented with everything. When I met her, she was pumped up about devil worship and satanic activities".

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bottom line... Arthur Lee's band called the "Grass Roots" (which became "LOVE")... was not THE "Grass Roots"... who sold over twenty million records worldwide.

If you read Arther Lee's Bio, it states:

"He (Lee) formed The Grass Roots with guitarist Johnny Echols (another Memphis native), bassist Johnny Fleckenstein and drummer Don Conka. Byrds roadie Bryan MacLean joined the band just before they changed their name to Love, spurred by the release of a single by another group called The Grass Roots".

THE famous "Grass Roots", was founded by P. F. Sloan and Steve Barri.
Arthur Lee, had nothing to do with the famous "Grass Roots".

Having said that, according to Wiki...

The band "LOVE" (which was Arthur Lee's "Grass Roots", under their new name) "lived communally in a house once owned by horror actor Béla Lugosi, and their first two albums included photographs shot in the garden of that house".

This almost certainly is the "Spiral Staircase" as V717 suggests.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

This is from Bobby's record label "White Dog Music"... so, likely credible:

http://www.whitedogmusic.com/B/wizard/bio.html

Plying his developing talents as a guitarist through several garage band experiments better left forgotten, BeauSoleil landed a position as second guitar in Arthur Lee’s new band, The Grass Roots – a band that a short time later would become widely known as Love. His membership in the group was short-lived, however; he was fired ostensibly because he was too young to play legally in adults-only nightclubs. Crushed but undaunted; BeauSoleil left Los Angeles for parts north.

beauders said...

not only did krenwinkel say they met a blond englishman at the spiral staircase she said the girls did not like the influence this man had on manson.
the owner of the spiral staircase was a woman in her 40's that manson met in s.f. called gina, who was english. the leader of the solar lodge of the o.t.o. was an English woman in her 40's named georgina brayton. many have speculated that gina and georgina are the same person. also brayton owned many houses as rental property during her cult years.

Ken619 said...

v717 said...

The house of the "spiral staircase"
is said to have been owned originally by the actor Bela Lugosi. But do anyone here knows who owned the house back in the sixties?
The rock group LOVE had on one of their first albums a photo, there you can see the group standing in a spiral staircase. It is said that the photo was taken in that house.

Ken said.....

Many years ago, I made the same presumption. I made the Bobby/Love connection and with the image of them on the staircase. I was wrong. The Spiral Staircase was at Topanga Beach and the Bela Lugosi home is in Los Feliz. They're on either side of LA. I contacted Craig Tarwater and he referred me to a guy named Jac Ttanna. Below is his response in email.

Hi Ken,

I would have to see the picture, but I seriously doubt
it it was taken at Topanga Canyon because I can't
imagion them going all the way out there for a photo
shoot. More likely it was taken at a giant castle
(mansion actually, but everyone referred to it as the
castle)in the Los Feliz hills where they lived for a
time. This place was so huge that Arthur used to get
around by roller skating on the marble floors. I've
been there a few times, in fact my band did a shoot
there a few years after Love had moved on, and I seem
to remember a spiral staircase. It was an amazing
place with a giant ballroom, balconies and stained
glass windows. A perfect place for a photo shoot.

Hope that helps,
Jac

Ken619 said...

Dave Chapple referred me to David Fairweather to answer the question "Was the picture taken at The Spiral Staircase. Here is David Fairweather's response by email.

"I don't think so. I always thought those pics were taken at Arthur's home "the Castle" in Hollywood Hills. But I could be wrong."

The others I contacted all said it was at Arthur's house called "The Castle".

David Fairweather's blog

http://love.torbenskott.dk

v717 said...

Bedpan 25
No source is mentioned about BB involvement with LOVE.
As a matter of fact the source I was queted from was Johnny Echols himself. There was earlier a clip on YOU TUBE there Johnny talked about his friend Bobby and he also mentions his meeting with Susan Atkins who was together with BB at that meeting. But the clip seems to have been taken away.
The Spiral Staircase was also the place Bobby B met Charles Manson.
Manson describe the spiral staircase as a place there: "National celebrities and prominent sport figures and sometimes those who wore the cloth and preached the almighty word of God came together and practised bloodsacrifies of animals in conjuncton with satanic sex rituals and also a fair amount of S&M. There were people with long beards, knives pounding on pots, witches who would look like children and transform themselves into old women before your eyes and much more."
It seems that if you wanted a real night on town The spiral staircase was the place to go, ha ha.


I

Pristash said...

No Manson audition for the Monkees...he was in prison at the time.

Stephen Stills never auditioned either...he was asked to but because he had just started to make it he suggested his friend Peter Tork...

Just finished reading the Keith Richards book, LIFE. He admits to carrying a knife and pulling it more than once in the recording studio to make a point. He even threw it at a guy once too, so maybe Charlie wasn't too far off the mark here...or perhaps he was.

And can't we all sue Sanders for just being an all around idiot? Or at least for not telling us what he can prove and what he can't? He's only one step above GoRightly if you ask me.

Pristash said...

But what rings true to me in this discussion is that Charlie heard from the process people

"Both believed Revelations prophecy that a violent Armageddon was imminent and that it would destroy all but 144,000 of the "chosen people", The Process calling it "The Final Judgement"; Manson calling it "Judgement Day" or "Helter Skelter"."

I just don't see Charlie being a big fan of the Bible...that he would have just picked it up and started reading, not with his lack of attention span. So I can see him being turned on to this by these guys, and then when the White Album comers out with Revolution 9, that hsi synapses staretd to fire and from there he created the connection between the Beatles, the Bible, and the slide in the English amusement park.

katie8753 said...

I saw in the paper last month that Bela Lugosi's home was up for sale. Check out this link.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/25/bela-lugosis-home_n_852615.html#s268338

It's referred to as "Castle La Paloma" in Beachwood Canyon. Is this near Los Feliz Ken?

Marliese said...

I feel the same about The Family being a step above gorightly's book, Pristash. I find it disorganized and confusing...but hey, maybe that's just my personal learning style. LOL.
I find it frustrating that he frequently fails to note his sources, and didn't include an index.

Lynyrd...I was surprised to see the passage you noted from The Family about the "trippy broad from San Francisco" owning the Spiral staircase because it's contained word for word in the Nuel Emmons book Manson in His Own Words...page 122. Did i miss something?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Ken.

I had my doubts, because if you look at the album art of "Love's" first two albums (supposedly taken at the Spiral Staircase)... there's photos of large stone structures, which don't seem to correlate with the Spiral Staircase we generally refer to.
These stone structures do look "Castle-like".
Also, the actual staircase that the band is standing-on, in the famous photo... illustrates a really clean, well-maintaned place.
The stairway itself, and background, appear well-kept.
It doesn't look like something one would expect from a hippie-cult hang-out.
So... your information seems to make sense.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P said: Hendrickson is charging $100 effing dollars for Death To Pigs....Cmon! WHERE'S THE $100 WORTH OF INFO AND DETAILS?>>>

Mr. Hendrickson is trying to make more money off a dead horse. How many times can he re-write history???

Caveat Emptor.

katie8753 said...

Hi Marliese!

>>>Marliese said: Lynyrd...I was surprised to see the passage you noted from The Family about the "trippy broad from San Francisco" owning the Spiral staircase because it's contained word for word in the Nuel Emmons book Manson in His Own Words...page 122. Did i miss something?>>>

Marliese, it says the same thing in both books. Supposedly, Manson said it both times.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Marliese!

Marliese said>>>>
"Lynyrd...I was surprised to see the passage you noted from The Family about the "trippy broad from San Francisco" owning the Spiral staircase because it's contained word for word in the Nuel Emmons book Manson in His Own Words...page 122. Did i miss something?"<<<<

Your guess is as good as mine.
I typed the passage straight from page 23, of Sanders' book.
I can only assume, that one author took it (the quote) from the other.
Sanders original book was released first... but then again, it's undergone several new editions, which are all quite different.
The edition I'm using, is copyrighted 2002.... so, I have no idea.
When did Emmons book get released?
I've watched Emmons on video footage here and there, but I've never read his book.

katie8753 said...

>>>beauders said: the owner of the spiral staircase was a woman in her 40's that manson met in s.f. called gina, who was english. the leader of the solar lodge of the o.t.o. was an English woman in her 40's named georgina brayton. many have speculated that gina and georgina are the same person. also brayton owned many houses as rental property during her cult years.>>>

Well that makes sense, their both in the 40's and they have basically the same name and they're both English. Interesting!!

katie8753 said...

"their both in the 40's" should be "they are both in their 40's".

Ooopss!! Gotta slow down. HA HA.

starship said...

Katie knows Latin!

Marliese said...

Lynyrd, the Emmons book is 1986. A few quotes re the spiral staircase, page 128..."it was a hard-core multiple-devil worshiping bunch of people who passed through the doors of the Spiral Staircase." ... "I picked those girls up off the streets because they were looking for something. I didn't want any of those self styled priests, priestesses and gurus using the kids or me." ... "if outsiders moved in so easily for sex, they could just as easily start maneuvering some of the girls into heavier shit...like chains, whips, blood drinking, animal death and even human sacrifice." ... "At that time, not in a million years could i have been convinced that things would turn out bloody and bad."

Seems even Charlie had his standards, huh?

katie8753 said...

Marliese, in Sanders book, page 44, Manson says: "I'm not into sacrificing some animal or drinking its blood to get a better charge out of sex. Nor am I into chaining someone and whipping them to get my kicks like some of those people were."

It does like Charlie had a few standards, back then anyway.

He seems to be a few shoulders above Sebring in that regard. He was into S&M.

BTW, I don't believe Sadie when she goes into the "drinking blood" stuff. Just more of her embellishments to their reality.

katie8753 said...

Sanders says in the summer of 1968 Manson started having dealings with a bike club named the Gypsy Jokers.

I've read where these guys were pretty nasty. Below the usual sub-par of bike gangs.

Circumstance, didn't you mention this earlier?

I wonder if Charlie was trying recruit them for protection. They were scarier than the "Crips". LOL.

MrPoirot said...

beauders said...
not only did krenwinkel say they met a blond englishman at the spiral staircase she said the girls did not like the influence this man had on manson.
the owner of the spiral staircase was a woman in her 40's that manson met in s.f. called gina, who was english. the leader of the solar lodge of the o.t.o. was an English woman in her 40's named georgina brayton. many have speculated that gina and georgina are the same person. also brayton owned many houses as rental property during her cult years.

May 31, 2011 11:01 PM

Mr Poirot replies:

Hope I'm not confusing things further but in the porn movie 'The Devil in Miss Jones' starred an actress who used the alias Georgina Spelven. I read an article about her where she said Georgina was just a generic alias popular at that time. So whatever the 'trippy broads' name was it was probably just a play on that fake name. It's no telling who the trippy broad was.

katie8753 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

>>>Pristash said: Just finished reading the Keith Richards book, LIFE. He admits to carrying a knife and pulling it more than once in the recording studio to make a point. He even threw it at a guy once too, so maybe Charlie wasn't too far off the mark here...or perhaps he was.>>>

I don't think pulling or throwing a knife around co-workers or employers is ever a good idea. :)

katie8753 said...

>>>Mr. P. said: It's no telling who the trippy broad was.>>>

Well it's hard to say. I wish Charlie would have just said what her name was and we wouldn't have to guess.

But that just sounds like business as usual. LOL.

Mary said...

Lynyrd - know you are in MA...but heard that Springfield had a tornado...you affected?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Mary!

Everything's fine.
It got REALLY, REALLY (eerily) dark for a while (like the storm scene in Wizard of Oz, LOL), with lightning and thunder... but no rain or wind.
I guess Tornadoes (from what little I know) are really specific area-wise... unlike a hurricane, which is widepsread.

Anyway... I can't die now... I'm watching the Bruins play the Canucks in game one, of the Stanley Cup playoffs! LOL

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd I've been in tornadoes.

When it's really windy and the wind gets really still, that's when you worry.

Glad you're okay!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

When the game is scoreless after two periods... THAT'S when I worry! LOL
J/K

Thanks for your concern ladies.

MrPoirot said...

Pristash said...
No Manson audition for the Monkees...he was in prison at the time.

Stephen Stills never auditioned either...he was asked to but because he had just started to make it he suggested his friend Peter Tork...

Just finished reading the Keith Richards book, LIFE. He admits to carrying a knife and pulling it more than once in the recording studio to make a point. He even threw it at a guy once too, so maybe Charlie wasn't too far off the mark here...or perhaps he was.

Mr Poirot replies:

I forgot that was in Richards' book. I know over the years that Richards has had his ass kicked a few times. Both Charlie Watts and Chuck Berry clobbered him. I think Richards probably behaved like an angel at his first studio recording opportunity. I guess after you sell a few hundred million records you get to throw knives in the studio. However Phil Spector pulled guns and fired them in the studio and we all know where he is now. John Lennon got pissed at Spector for firing a gun in the studio. Motley Crew also was unnerved by Spector's gunplay in the studio. I doubt even Phil Spector acted up in his 1st studio sessions back in the 1950s. Charlie had problems with his temper anytime he was not in charge.

Kimchi said...

Did you guys know that Georgina Brayton went to trial in Riverside County for a locking a little boy in a box in the desert? In Blythe, I believe - it happened the same week that Gary Hinman was murdered if I remember rightly..

The OTO had a "place" out in Blythe, with several members, and the little boy set fire to the main house and Georgina ordered him locked in a box out in 100+ temperatures...

Horrible, but true...(the little boy was rescued and testified at the trial)..

Lynn said...

Regarding the tornado in Springfield, hear the Memorial Bridge was closed- glad to hear you are ok

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Bruins lose by one goal, with 19 seconds left!
ARRGH!!!

I hate to say it... but in a way, it was a good sign.
We stood toe-to-toe with the Canucks for the entire game... which is encouraging.
The Bruins convinced me tonight, that beating the Canucks is possible.
Quite frankly, I was kinda wondering if we were gonna get smoked.
Scoreless throughout... the game could have gone either way.

I know MattProkes is the only other Bruins fan on here... and I'm essentially talking to myself... but hey, whatever... LOL

katie8753 said...

>>Kimchi said: Did you guys know that Georgina Brayton went to trial in Riverside County for a locking a little boy in a box in the desert? In Blythe, I believe - it happened the same week that Gary Hinman was murdered if I remember rightly..>>>

No Kimchi. Tell us more!!!

Thanks!

Mary said...

we are safe here - and that includes you St. Circumstance. We can say what we want to say without someone censoring us...so what if Lynyrd and Katie are one and the same and racist to boot :)

Mary said...

Thank you Lynyrd!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Mary!

I'm definitely NOT racist.
I have several black friends.
Many of my black friends attended my own father's funeral, which I'll never forget... AND I've been an usher, in their weddings... even a "best man" once.
Some of my close white friends "blew-off" my dad's funeral... saying they couldn't take a day out of work.

I've got no problem with black people what-so-ever.
There's good and bad in all... black, white, brown, and yellow.

Quite frankly... I don't care of someone is green.
If they treat me repsectfully... they're awright in my book.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary... I know your comment was strictly tongue-in-cheek... but, I wanted to set the record straight on that point.

Mary said...

understood Lynyrd - so we can assume that you are Katie then :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hold on... I gotta switch avatars to Katie now... LOL

How f#cking absurd.

I couldn't pretend to be Katie, on my best day. LOLOL

Mary said...

but she has PROOF, Lynyrd...she has PROOF!

Mary said...

back on topic - I am glad that we are still reading and discussing the book...now I need to start reading so I can get caught up...great comments on the subject

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Yeah Mary... wasn't this whole book club thing your idea? LOLOL
I'm totally just teasin' ya. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary said>>>>
"understood Lynyrd - so we can assume that you are Katie then :)".<<<<

Well... given the choice between "Katie" and "Racist"... I guess I gotta go with "Katie" by default. LOLOL
But, it's a tough call!!! : )

I'm totally just kiddin' ya Katie!
(Well, kinda). AHahaha

Oh C'mon folks... you smiled.

Mary said...

"Yeah Mary... wasn't this whole book club thing your idea"

I know...I am so ashamed !! I will be ready next time

Kimchi said...

Katie said:

No Kimchi. Tell us more!!!

Georgina aka Jean and Richard Brayton acquired 20 acres out near Blythe, Ca - it was a commune type scene....but they also ran a cafe, a head shop (they called it a book store)and gas station on the property..

6 year old Anthony Saul Gibbons was playing with matches and set one of the buildings (main house) on fire. Jean's discipline was to burn the child's hand and then had him locked in a box on the property. It was summer 1969, and two people had come to the property to look at some horses and discovered the child and called police...they arrested the Braytons (but they made bail) and several others. By the time the trial began, the Braytons had moved to Mexico...

Very interesting story, even how they recruited their followers..from USC no less!

And yes, the trial proceeded and many were convicted, including the parents.

MrPoirot said...

Kimchi said:

the Braytons had moved to Mexico...

Very interesting story, even how they recruited their followers..from USC no less!

And yes, the trial proceeded and many were convicted, including the parents.

Mr Poirot replirs:

USC? OJ's alma mater!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey, Hey, Kimchi! LOL

Wow... that's quite a story... and a terrible one at that!

Excuse my ignorance, but both you and Beauders have used the acronym OTO.
What does that stand for??

Kimchi... do you believe that Georgiana Brayton was indeed the 40-something year old owner of the Spiral Staircase, as Beauders suggested?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hey, Hey Poirot!!

Kimchi said...

The Solar Lodge OTO - Ordo Templi Orientis -

I found this web page where one of the members wrote "in their defense" for the trial - they talked about "losing their old ego" - I'll have to see if I can find it...

LS - in my opinion she could have owned it - they owned properties all over LA - rentals in Watts, a book store close to USC - who knows, but some of her properties were in other people's name, it's anyone's guess...

Kimchi said...

There's lots of articles on the case in the LA Times Archives - here:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/results.html?st=advanced&QryTxt=Anthony+Saul+Gibbons&x=29&y=13&type=historic&sortby=REVERSE_CHRON&datetype=0&frommonth=12&fromday=04&fromyear=1881&tomonth=12&today=31&toyear=1984&By=&Title=&restrict=articles

MrPoirot said...

Kimchi said...
The Solar Lodge OTO - Ordo Templi Orientis -

I found this web page where one of the members wrote "in their defense" for the trial - they talked about "losing their old ego" - I'll have to see if I can find it...

LS - in my opinion she could have owned it - they owned properties all over LA - rentals in Watts,

......... a book store close to USC

............ - who knows, but some of her properties were in other people's name, it's anyone's guess...


Mr Poirot replies:

That bookstore Georgina(Jean Brayton) owned near USC was a head shop. It was right at a main entrance to the USC campus.

Kimchi said...

Oops, I don't think the entire link posted - it's very long..but here are some snippets from the Times:

DESERT TORTURE OF BOY CHARGED
8 Accused of Chaining Him in Packing Case for 2 Months CHAINED BOY (Jul 29, 1969)
"Six men and two women were accused Monday of chaining a 6-yearold Los Angeles boy inside a packing crate at their desert commune and keeping him there for nearly two months."

Father Admits Caging Son for 56 Days (Dec 4, 1971)
"A former Los Angeles County probation officer Friday admitted imprisoning his 6-year-old son in a wooden box for 56 days in 1969 as punishment for starting a fire."

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Jeez... that's freakin' horrible!!

ummo said...

I've heard the Sanders-and-Maury Terry-invented-the-whole-Process-involved-with-Manson-theme-and thereby-stands-discredited, that it is actually amusing. At least as amusing as certain parties who still to this day work tirelessly to put a clean spin on certain occult organisations that supposedly disbanded thirty years ago, and the dupes that take it as given fact without even checking something so basic as contemporary media accounts of the time.

Here is a series of newspapers with articles about the Sharp/Gaul killings from 1969.

Way before Sanders was published.

Way before Maury Terry.

LA police first investigated the Church of $cientology, and then turned their attention to the Process by December 10th 1969.

http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.com/victim_gaul-sharp.html

Of course that will not stop fellow travelers and their client "animal shelterers" from disputing the account by those lunatic-fringe tin-foil konspiracy kooks at the Colorado Daily Tribune. Feel free. :-)

ummo said...

I've heard the Sanders-and-Maury Terry-invented-the-whole-Process-involved-with-Manson-theme-and thereby-stands-discredited, that it is actually amusing. At least as amusing as certain parties who still to this day work tirelessly to put a clean spin on certain occult organisations that supposedly disbanded thirty years ago, and the dupes that take it as given fact without even checking something so basic as contemporary media accounts of the time.

Here is a series of newspapers with articles about the Sharp/Gaul killings from 1969.

Way before Sanders was published.

Way before Maury Terry.

LA police first investigated the Church of $cientology, and then turned their attention to the Process by December 10th 1969.

http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.com/victim_gaul-sharp.html

Of course that will not stop fellow travelers and their client "animal shelterers" from disputing the account by those lunatic-fringe tin-foil konspiracy kooks at the Colorado Daily Tribune. Feel free. :-)

ummo said...

Actually (I've really gotta lay off the 5-MEO-DMT while posting! Oy!):

http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.com/victim_gaul_sharp.html

Oh, by the way, RONALD HADLEY STARK = GRAND CHINGON.

Follow their respective migrations from north to south in early 1969.

Follow the black Mercedes.

Did Stark know Robert & Mary Anne?