Saturday, April 23, 2011

"Manson Tour" Anyone?
40 Years After the Manson Verdict, Visitors Take 'Helter Skelter Tour' - Chris Epting - AOL News -Jan 25, 2011

Scott Michaels runs "Dearly Departed Tours", a Los Angeles tour company with a macabre slant. He is an expert on the history surrounding the Manson case.

"This case had movie stars, rock legends, Hollywood moguls and a spectacularly gruesome murder. It was spoon-fed to us on a daily basis by the media. True crime nuts came out of the closet -- Manson gave us permission to stare, and we were gagging for more." In the weeks after Tate's murder, the country was transfixed with terror.

"There was a three-month period between the day of the murders and arrests were made," Michaels said. "During that period, paranoia ran high -- and had a profound psychological effect on people. These victims were lying in bed, sleeping on the sofa or reading the newspaper ...

"Remember the Night Stalker and the Hillside Stranglers? Manson put these guys on the map. His appearance and expression made a convenient bogeyman, and still does."
Today, many Americans remain fixated on true crime to such a point that the topic inspired a road-show gallery of ghoulish gear plucked from crime scenes.

"There was a homicide exhibit in Vegas last year," Michaels told AOL News. "It was hosted by the LAPD and they displayed several artifacts from infamous crimes. The bloody glove from the [O.J.] Simpson case, the gun used by Christian Brando, vehicles from the North Hollywood shootout. And on one end of the room were items pertaining to the Manson case."
Those items included the fork that was found protruding from Leno LaBianca's abdomen, the rope that was around Tate's and Sebring's necks, among other items related to the gruesome killings. 
"No matter how long you stayed in the exhibit," Michaels said, "the Manson artifacts were surrounded five people deep with spectators. By far the most popular part of the exhibit."

That public fascination with the Manson murders is what inspired Michaels, who hosted the acclaimed documentary "The Six Degrees of Helter Skelter," to include "The Helter Skelter Tour" on his Dearly Departed Tours menu. As Michaels puts it, the tour -- which runs several times per month, usually on Saturdays -- allows one to "relive this horrific and historical crime by traveling to the actual locations where these people lived and died."

With the top 40 songs of 1969 playing, Michaels takes visitors to the key locations. The tour includes:
•The Tate and LaBianca murder locations
•The final steps of Rosemary and Leno LaBianca
•Jay Sebring's salon
•The El Coyote restaurant where the Tate group had their last supper
•Where the murderers disposed of the clothing and the murder weapon, and the driveway where the killers washed off after the murders
•A multimedia presentation complete with video and audio clips (including the murderers themselves) surrounding the case

Michaels donates $5 of each ticket sold on "The Helter Skelter Tour" to the Doris Tate Crime Victim Foundation, an organization formed by Sharon Tate's mother, Doris, who died in 1992. Her work was taken over by her daughter, Patti.

For Tickets, Reservations and Tour Information...
Visit Scott's Site Here:   http://www.zerve.com/DDTours/Helter
Tours run approximately 3.5 hours, for $50.

114 comments:

katie8753 said...

I'm game!!! Sign me up!!!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

It says, Michaels hosted the acclaimed documentary "The Six Degrees of Helter Skelter".

I've never watched that documentary.
Anyone know if it was any good?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie...
The bus already left for today, you better shoot for next saturday.
LOLOL

St. Circumstance said...

I have it- it is o.k. it is basically a video tour of the locations with some background stuff- its nothing new as far as the case- but he does show some of the old places and what they look like today- Tex and Jays- old hair salons... things like that

St. Circumstance said...

I am going to do my own version of this tour next summer- but I did get some useful tips from this video- I own all the Manson related DVD's- and this is the one I watch the least lol- but after reading and hearing so much about these [laces this was sort of cool the first time I watched it..

My fav DVD is not really about the case but both Bobby, and Jay both have breif cameos so I keep it in my M collection.. "Mondo Hollywood"... This really gives you a look at life in L.A. in the late 60' frank Zappa is in it as well, and you really get a great feel for the times watching it...

katie8753 said...

Doh....I missed the bus again! HA HA.

Hey Circumstance, if you're going to do a tour next summer it would be great if we could all go.

Mondo Hollywood. I've seen parts of that. Where do you get all these CDs? Amazon?

It says on Michaels' website that you're welcome to discuss the case with others on the bus. Boy....wouldn't that turn into Helter Skelter!!

"Charlie's good and nice".

"No he's not, he's evil".

HA HA HA.

katie8753 said...

Not CDs....DVDs. Ouch.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Circumstance...

A new blogger came on here a while back, and said Tex's Wig Shop, and Jay's hair salon, were very close in proximity.
He may have said "next door", I can't remember.
Were the shops really that close?

The significance?
This blogger proposed that they (Tex and Jay) definitely knew each other, because the shops were so close.
He proposed that this was one of the "key connections" between the two camps.
What's your take?
Anyone?

According to Polanski... on the lie detector interview... Roman mentions Jay and Voytek as targets, but definitely mentions Jay first, and ironically, spends a lot more time discussing Jay (than Voytek) as well.
Roman says Jay was evidently in debt... owing his dentist a large sum (like 6 grand)... paying-off his dental bill in monthly installments of $100.
Roman suspected... Jay was in debt, and may have been involved in "drug delivery" for extra income.
Anyone else ever heard of this Jay Sebring-Tex-Drug angle?

Roman goes-on to say that Voytek had been "sniffing cocaine" regularly for two years, but doesn't seem as interested in disuccsing Voytek.

The Voytek stuff is old news...
but, this Sebring stuff is all news to me.

Were Jay and Tex really acquaintances dealing hair first... and drugs later???
Anyone?

I believe it was Katie, who said recently, that Tex's shop was in fact, used to sell drugs, after the wigs weren't very lucrative. LOL
He converted merchandising. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

"Mondo Hollywood"... I'll check that out!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>>
"It says on Michaels' website that you're welcome to discuss the case with others on the bus. Boy....wouldn't that turn into Helter Skelter!!"

AHahahaha
Yeah, depending who you're sitting near huh?! LOL

Katie...
I can see you grabbing the bus microphone and screaming "Fry all these murdering Bastards Now"!!!!... halfway through the trip. : )

rfoster1 said...

The Six Degrees DVD is good. I enjoyed it quite a bit and have watched it at least a dozen times.

St. Circumstance said...

There is a book I have , and I will try to find the exact book and page..

it says for a time when Tex lived on the beach- his wig shop was in Laurel canyon, and Jay lived in/near the canyon and worked in his salon near the beach where Tex lived..

The quote from the book is something like...

So- on a normal day in the canyon- Tex and Jay passed each other every day on there ways to work...

no doubt they were in the same vicinity and along with hair- they were both in the drug business as well...

yet never a solid piece of evidence that they new each other has ever come up???

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: Katie...
I can see you grabbing the bus microphone and screaming "Fry all these murdering Bastards Now"!!!!... halfway through the trip. : )>>>

ROFLMAO. Yeah they'd have to strap me in the back of the bus with one of those ball gags. HA HA.

St. Circumstance said...

Not what I was looking for - but along these lines...


During the summer of 1968, when Charlie Manson and numerous members of his entourage, including Charles “Tex” Watson and Dean Moorehouse, were shacking up with Melcher’s best buddy, Dennis Wilson, Tex and Dean were known to regularly visit the Melcher/Bergen home on Cielo Drive. Charlie Manson is known to have visited the Melcher home on several occasions as well, and to have occasionally borrowed Melcher’s Jaguar. Just after Melcher and Bergen vacated the home, Jakobson reportedly arranged for Moorehouse to live there briefly, before Tate and Polanski took possession in February of 1969. During Moorehouse’s stay, Tex, who would later be portrayed as the leader of the Tate and LaBianca hit squads, came calling regularly. His address book would later be found to contain a phone number for a former Polanski residence.

Watson had moved out to LA from Texas in 1966 after opting to drop out of college, which those who knew him viewed as being wildly out of character. By the spring of 1968, when Charles Watson met Charles Manson at Dennis Wilson’s home, Tex was the modish co-owner of Crown Wig Creations on the corner of Santa Monica Boulevard and Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. Through that business enterprise, he had developed extensive Hollywood contacts – contacts that came in handy when he began handling large drug transactions and large piles of cash for Charlie Manson. Tex Watson soon grew so close to Manson that, according to Ed Sanders, he was known to complain at times “that he actually thought he was Charlie.”

Lynn said...

I found the DVD in a bargain bin and actually enjoyed it- especially living in LA...nice to know the history

katie8753 said...

>>Circumstance said: His address book would later be found to contain a phone number for a former Polanski residence.>>>

For some reason I find that hilarious!! Tex had an address book??? HA HA HA.

I wonder if Cielo Drive was under "C" for Cielo, "D" for Drugs, or "K" for kill.

I can just see Tex getting into the old Ford and consulting with his address book for directions to Cielo Drive. LOLOL.

katie8753 said...

As many places as they went, stayed, partied, etc. that address book must have been the size of the NYC yellow pages. Hoo Hoo.

St. Circumstance said...

Katie :)

You have a really good point there- that address book would have been very interesting to see...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello rfoster1.
Welcome to the blog!

rfoster1 said>>>
"The Six Degrees DVD is good. I enjoyed it quite a bit and have watched it at least a dozen times.

I'm gonna grab a copy.
The locations and geography (as I've said many times), are not my forte', so I'd probably benefit from it , more than most.
I'm gonna check it out.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>>
"they'd have to strap me in the back of the bus with one of those ball gags. HA HA".

AHahahahaha
I wasn't gonna say it but... LOL

They're used in all your favorite movies Katie.
The main character in Hostel.
Ving Rames in Pulp Fiction.

Maybe I should pick one up for the blog. LOLOL

I think we coulda used one last week! : )

I luv ya Katie.
Just messin' with ya.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Lynn said>>>
"I found the DVD in a bargain bin and actually enjoyed it- especially living in LA...nice to know the history".

It's funny, I found an original hard-back copy of "The Family" at a yard sale.
If you keep your eyes open, you can find a lot of vintage stuff (related to this case), in bargain bins, flea markets, yard sales.
I saw a cool Manson poster in an Army/Navy shop once. LOL

Great to see you Lynn!
You Rock!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>>
"As many places as they went, stayed, partied, etc. that address book must have been the size of the NYC yellow pages. Hoo Hoo".

As I re-read "The Family" after a gazillion years (basically for the first time now)...
I keep thinking that very thought.
Is there anyone they didn't have contact with... in some way, shape, or form?
The list is endless.

I can see Manson:

"Hey Sadie... go grab me the main address/phone book.
Ya know, that thick book on the fridge.
NO... not that one... the thick one... the one that's bigger than the bible"! LOL

You gotta wonder how many names were crossed-out of that book as well!

"Let's see... it used to be in here after Pugh... but, ah". LOLOL

Ok... Hinman... we can cross that one out too".

"Shea... that opens-up a space in the "S" section". LOL

"Heck... we better pencil Crowe back in... seems he's been re-incarcerated... I mean incarnated". AHahaha
"Maybe there's some truth to all my Scientology crap after all... Crowe's back larger than ever"! LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK... back to reality.

Thanks Circumstance, for all your research and input.
Much appreciated as always.

It seems more and more likely, that these two camps, were more well-acquainted, than here-to-fore believed.
Marlin Marynik says straight-out in the footage, that Manson told him, they all knew each other.
In fact, Manson told him "they were all friends".

The more you get into this stuff, the less far-fetched that notion becomes, and makes a lot more sense than random, meaningless, Helter Skelter, with no motive.

Sebring is in question.
Frykowski has always been in question.
Even Roman really.
It's been said, that Roman was securing young hippie girls, for X-Rated films.
Not much of a stretch, considering Roman was a pedophile, child-rapist, and a movie maker.
Roman states on the lie detector, (in his own words) "I f#cked a couple airline stewardesses, days after Sharon's death".
So he's a freak.
Leno was sinking fast in major gambling debts... always tied to crime and the underworld.
You got Harold True, living next door to Leno.
Leno reportedly going-out to "speak to" the Manson crew, during a large party.

I'm starting to wonder, if everybody, didn't know everybody!
AHahahaha

If they spent that much time with Dennis Wilson, again, it's not so far-fetched.

Maybe Manson's telling the truth to Marynik.

St. Circumstance said...

Laurel Canyon is the key to proving who knew who..

First there is Dennis Wilson- and Terry Melcher- Melcher who produced the Bryds- from Laurel Canyon...

There are various books out there who put Manson and Neil Young together in the Canyon... as well- Cathy gillies met the family whiles she was a " buffalo Springfield groupie"- another way that Manson connects to Neil young, as well they all partied in Zappas Cabin- and Zappa was in a movie with Bobby- and the "hippy" cabin is mentioned in several places a a place where the family partied..

once you can prove that Charlie was indeed at these places with these people- it is not much of a stretch to say he could have met Mama Cass- who was considered the nurturing mother to all the musicians in this scene... and we know who lived across the street from her....

So I always thought this was the way to look for motive... if Drugs were behind it..

This is where they could all have been together- and of course once the case broke- none of these poeple would have said a word, or wanted to be connected in any way...

If drugs weren't the motive- then nobody had a reason to put any of them on the stand and make any of the sordid details known...

With the emergence of Helter Skelter- drugs were not the motive- and regardless of that being a conspiracy- or just the way things went..

It got alot of poeple out of being publicly involved....

St. Circumstance said...

eil Young encountered Charles Manson when he was a "player" in the California music scene. After Manson and his "Family" committed their awful crime, Neil wrote "Revolution Blues." The line, "10 million dune buggies" is a reference to Manson's plan to assemble ample forces in the Mojave desert to carry our his race war. Young describes Charles Manson as not so much of a song-writer as a "song-spewer." But he remembers actually telling record executive Mo Ostin, "This guy, he's good. He's just a little out of control." Maybe not such a good judge of character, then?

St. Circumstance said...

Neil Young recalled the time he spent mixing with the Manson Family to The Observer Music Monthly October 2008: "Spooky times. I knew Charlie Manson. A few people were at this house on Sunset Boulevard and the people were different. I didn't know what it was; I was meeting them and he was not a happy guy but he seemed to have a hold on girls. It was the ugly side of the Maharishi. You know, there's one side of the light, nice flowers and white robes and everything, and then there's something that looks a lot like it but just isn't it at all."

St. Circumstance said...

I think alot of them did know him...

and who wants to be known as a friend of the guy who killed the 60's??

St. Circumstance said...

Here is from another online bio of bobby:


Beausoleil's nickname "Cupid". Bobby also became friends with Frank Zappa, and can be heard as a backup singer on Zappa's first record, Freak Out...

St. Circumstance said...

"I mean, fuck, he auditioned for Neil [Young] for fuck's sake." -- Graham Nash, explaining to author Michael Walker how close Charlie Manson was to the Laurel Canyon scene.

During the ten-year period during which Bruce, Novarro, Mineo, Linkletter, Stevens, Tate, Sebring, Frykowski and Folger all turned up dead, a whole lot of other people connected to Laurel Canyon did as well, often under very questionable circumstances.

St. Circumstance said...

Check what this online article says about Mama Cass :

* "Mama" Cass Elliot, the "Earth Mother" of Laurel Canyon whose circle of friends included musicians, Mansonites, young Hollywood stars, the wealthy son of a State Department official, singer/songwriters, assorted drug dealers, and some particularly unsavory characters the LAPD once described as "some kind of hit squad," died in the London home of Harry Nilsson on July 29, 1974

St. Circumstance said...

I cant account for the Labiancas- but if Drugs were the motive for Cielo drive- I think the truth lies somewhere in the past of laurel Canyon...

St. Circumstance said...

Here is one last one that says basically they all knew each other.. ( I fond all of these in books I read, or online articles)


Charlie must have had some musical talent, and made quite a few contacts with those in the music business. Phil Kaufman described Charlie's music as, "He sounded like a young Frankie Laine and was really quite good." Beach Boys drummer, Dennis Wilson later said, "Charlie didn't have a musical bone in his whole body." Yet, he did get Charlie studio time at brother Brian Wilson's studio. Even Neil Young knew Manson. "He had this kind of music that nobody else was doing. I thought he really had something crazy, something great. He was like a living poet." John Phillips of the Mamas and Papas was less enthusiastic. When others would suggest that he record Manson, Phillips recalled, "I'd just shudder every time. I'd say no, I think I'll pass."

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Honestly Saint...
You're probably dead-on correct.
The Laurel Canyon music scene, is very likely what brought these two worlds together.
That's how they got to know each other.
Music is a great common denominator.
Artists are great for ignoring "social-strata".
Artists ignore dividers such as, rich/poor, "haves/have nots"... and never more-so, than in the 60's.
Heck, the Wilson situation alone, is major testament to that.

Melcher, Young, Wilson, Cass, Zappa, Phillips, Kaufman... they knew Manson, or one of his associates.
Musically, some liked Manson, and evidently some didn't.
But, it doesn't matter.
The point... is that they knew him, and vice-versa.

...and what goes hand-in-hand with the music scene in the 60's? Drugs.


---------------------------------------------

Saint said>>>>
"So I always thought this was the way to look for motive... if Drugs were behind it".

Makes sense to me.

---------------------------------------------

Saint said>>>>
"This is where they could all have been together- and of course once the case broke- none of these poeple would have said a word, or wanted to be connected in any way"...

"If drugs weren't the motive- then nobody had a reason to put any of them on the stand and make any of the sordid details known"...

I've always believed, that Bugliosi was instructed, to keep as many "Hollywood Elites" out of the case... and out of the witness stand as possible.
The Helter Skelter story, was very handy at accomplishing that goal.
This ties very strongly, into what you're saying.


---------------------------------------------

Saint said>>>
It got alot of poeple out of being publicly involved....

Exactly!
So many people, that it had to have been orchestrated that way intentionally.
The fact that Wilson alone, never took the stand, is uncanny.


---------------------------------------------

Saint said>>>>
"and who wants to be known as a friend of the guy who killed the 60's"??

The musicians had entire careers at stake.
Major pressure must have been applied to Bugliosi (by very rich people), to keep this stuff under wraps.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Besides... Manson and Company literally LIVED with Wilson.
The Beach Boys were huge.
It would defy logic, to believe they (The Family), didn't meet many, many hollywood folks, while LIVING there.
How could they not?

St. Circumstance said...

Now follow me please :)

If Melcher and Wilson had met Charlie and they introduced him, or he met some of there mutual friends in the canyon- he would have been hanging out with Melcher while Melcher was at Cielo ( in fact Dean lived there, so Tex and Charlie had both been there ) AND while Voytek was living across from Mama Cass... so if they were all hanging out and dealing to each other- then when Voytek moved to Cielo- this would not be new news to Charlie/Tex, or a new place to Charlie/Tex...

It starts to make more sense- doesn't it??? not nearly as bizarre-

But it doesn't answer all the questions - it just starts to paint a more clear picture of who might have knew who.. and it doesn't account for the Labiancas...

St. Circumstance said...

The Iranian photographer guy who said he saw Charlie at the door...

Well if Charlie was there looking for people he knew ( gibby/Voytek) and he saw a stranger- maybe charlie acted, and was confused) When he saw Rudy later- he may have asked for Terry because he knew Rudy would know Terry- and it seemed better than asking for a guy he knew didn't live there officially and was selling drugs..

St. Circumstance said...

if you think Helter skelter was B.S.- then there has to be other legitimate reasons for all the stuff Bugs put out there...

Maybe this explains a few of them

St. Circumstance said...

Nobody could ever explain that mysterious visit to cielo Charlie made..

What if he went there looking for Voytek, and then a Indian looking dude comes out and tells him to go out back... so he goes out back and nobody answers...

So he goes back later and this time goes straight to the back because he thinks Voytek must not be in the main house- but this time Rudy answers- and Charlie is aware of him- so instead of asking where the guy is he wants for " whatever" he asks a safe question about a subject he already knows the answer to- then goes into his own self serving direction- which was blown off by Rudy..

A possible answer??

St. Circumstance said...

What happens when your a kid and you show up for a party at your friends house and when you knock - one of the parents opens the door...

You come up with pretty quick reason for being there dont you lol

St. Circumstance said...

It would also explain why Charlie would ask for Terry- when he knew Melcher wasn't there...

when Rudy came to the door- he would have thought that he was at the wrong place twice- and rather than look really suspicious - at least he could make it sound like he had a reason to be there...

Mary said...

Didnt Bugliosi stated in Helter Skelter that Charlie knew all these folks...he said that is why the houses were picked...and the Helter Skelter motive was just what was presented to the jury...Bugliosi did not state that was the sole reason - he questioned the same things we are questioning. There is always more than one story to a situation - but when you are presenting it to the jury - you need to make it simple. And enough people testified about Helter Skelter...hell Neil Young even knew about it before it happened.

Mary said...

there is just too many people verifying the Helter Skelter motive...but I think we all know and even Bug knows that there are a multitude of reasons it was done and why these people were picked

St. Circumstance said...

LOL maybe- but still it is an idea..

after the second trip up there- Charlie may have felt like- Damn it I know that Voytek is in there somewhere- but yet he had to be confused as to who was up there as well...

Which.... could lead him to say something like...

go with Tex and kill WHOEVER is up there....

St. Circumstance said...

because if this theory is right- he would have felt pretty screwed by now, and maybe he felt animosity towards the house- not because of Helter sketer- but because of a more reals reason like- someone in there owed him ,and he felt they were hiding or protecting him... he was frustrated by the adress- and whatever was owed to him by who he thought lived there...

He heard through the canyon connections/friends that Voytek had moved there... then when he went ( twice) he couldn't find him..

Screw it- go get them all...

St. Circumstance said...

Or- he wanted to start a race war and go hide in a hole...

Mary said...

or he wanted both

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said>>>
If they were all hanging out and dealing to each other- then when Voytek moved to Cielo- this would not be new news to Charlie/Tex, or a new place to Charlie/Tex...

It starts to make more sense- doesn't it??? not nearly as bizarre-

Makes sense to me.

------------------------------------------

Saint said>>>>
"But it doesn't answer all the questions - it just starts to paint a more clear picture of who might have knew who.. and it doesn't account for the Labiancas"...

Exactly.
The LaBiancas are a totally different ball game.
...and thank God for that.
If we solved the case, what would we talk about? LOL
I think the LaBianca murders had something directly to do with Leno's major horse-racing addiction/debt.


--------------------------------------------

Sanit sad>>>>
"What happens when your a kid and you show up for a party at your friends house and when you knock - one of the parents opens the door...

You come up with pretty quick reason for being there dont you lol

It would also explain why Charlie would ask for Terry- when he knew Melcher wasn't there...

when Rudy came to the door- he would have thought that he was at the wrong place twice- and rather than look really suspicious - at least he could make it sound like he had a reason to be there"...

Exactly.
This is why, you can't read too much, into every single word that's said.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

The Always Lovely Mary said>>>>
"Didnt Bugliosi stated in Helter Skelter that Charlie knew all these folks...he said that is why the houses were picked...and the Helter Skelter motive was just what was presented to the jury...Bugliosi did not state that was the sole reason - he questioned the same things we are questioning. There is always more than one story to a situation - but when you are presenting it to the jury - you need to make it simple".

Absolutely right as always.

Bugliosi was interviewd in recent years... regarding the motive.

On film he says:
"In retrospect, it appears the motives were several and disparate".

If you present 5 motives to the jury... it's too un-wieldy.
It's an impossible "sell", and nearly impossible to explain.
At a minimum, he'd have to present two motives... to account for both Tate and LaBianca accurately.

Bugliosi also had to keep it as "streamlined" as possible, as he was prosecuting several folks simultaneously, to boot.
He had to have a story that implicated everyone, equally and effectively.
If you start arguing 2-5 motives, amongst several defendents... you're screwed.

Helter Skelter was gift-wrapped for Bugliosi.
It kept everyone prosecuted under one motive.
It kept many "hollywood elite" off the stand, and kept them from being embarrassed.
It kept the victims' families from being embarassed, as well.

He was handed this motive by the family themselves... 'cuz Manson did in fact preach it, to control the underlings... AND, Charlie cemented the win... by demonstarting to the jury, HE was, in-fact, in-charge, through-out the trial!

Bug... you little bugger! LOL

...And he made loads of money to boot.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said>>>>
"Or- he wanted to start a race war and go hide in a hole"...

Exactly. : )
It's the topic, that just keeps on giving. LOLOL

Mary said...

so Lynyrd - you don't really think that Charlie actually believed what he preached?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary said>>>
"so Lynyrd - you don't really think that Charlie actually believed what he preached"?

To me (unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible)...
There's really only two scenarios here:

1) Manson was preaching "Helter Skelter"... he really believed in it... and that was, in fact, the true motive.

2) Manson was preaching "Helter Skelter", as a brainwashing tool, to manipulate the kids, into carying-forth his deeds.

Those "deeds", could have included, doaling-out retribution for drug burns, collecting money, re-paying debts to underworld figures... all the stuff we hear about on these discussion boards.
(Primarily, drugs or gambling debts).

But either way...
It seems clear, the "Helter Skelter" doctrine, was indeed preached.
There's just way too many "Family" members, who have re-counted this story, for this to be fabricated.
Manson did tell the HS story.

What do I think?
I've always leaned strongly towards scenario #2.
I think Manson's every move was purposeful.

Now that he's old... not so much.
But back then... sure.

He was a master manipulator.
That was his real claim to fame.

Leslie described Manson as:
"A manipulator of the most cruel kind".

Pat, Leslie and Susan, all thought Manson was 100% truthful.
After "cooling-off" in jail for a few decades... they all realise, he was full-of-shit. LOL

Kimchi said...

>>>Leslie described Manson as:
"A manipulator of the most cruel kind".

Pat, Leslie and Susan, all thought Manson was 100% truthful.
After "cooling-off" in jail for a few decades... they all realise, he was full-of-shit. LOL<<<

As unpopular as this may seem, but I think this is too self serving...
JMO

Lynn said...

I agree that Manson probably knew many in the scene and believe drugs were probably a major factor. Saint- you have great recall for people and places...

I always wondered if LaBianca had more to do with Harold True and Phil Kaufman....didn't they live close by? Wonder if Manson and crew ever visited True and met the LaBianca's?

Kimchi said...

OK, for all you youngsters - Sunset Blvd. 1963...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLv4g_A1JP8&sns=fb

Lynn said...

Great footage, Kimchi

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Lynn said>>>
"Saint- you have great recall for people and places"...

He sure does.
He'd make a great eye-witness.
Don't commit any crimes when he's around! LOL
(Just Kidding)

-------------------------------------------

Lynn said>>>>
I always wondered if LaBianca had more to do with Harold True and Phil Kaufman....didn't they live close by? Wonder if Manson and crew ever visited True and met the LaBianca's?

I've always been kinda fuzzy on that whole issue.
I've read and seen in a few places, that Harold True lived next door to the LaBianca's at some point.
Also, True has stated on film, that he had known Manson... even saying that Manson wanted to move a portion of the the family in with him (next door to the LaBianca's) at one point.
He said Manson "offered" him his pick of the girls, in exchange for moving-in.
He said he declined.
Leno's ex-wife (I believe it was) said, that Leno went over to break-up a "hippie" party next door at True's, or something like that... and Manson may have been there.
Anyone know the particulars on these stories for sure?

katie8753 said...

>>>Circumstance said: Nobody could ever explain that mysterious visit to cielo Charlie made..>>>

No that's not true. He went there looking for Terry Melcher because he was mad about not getting a recording contract.

>>What if he went there looking for Voytek, and then a Indian looking dude comes out and tells him to go out back... so he goes out back and nobody answers...>>>

That's not what happened. He knocked on the door and was told by that "Indian Dude" that there was no one by that name there, that he needed to talk to the owner who lived in the guest house.

He then proceeded to the guest house and Rudy answered and told him to go away.

Charlie knew the Helter Skelter stuff was bullshit. It was just another means of "feeding them spiritually". And another form of control. Charlie WAS/STILL IS a master manipulator. He learned it in prison. There was no Helter Skelter. Period. Read my lips.

It was simply a ruse that Charlie developed to keep his minions in line, and have them do his wishes.

Circumstance, I love you, but I don't agree with you.

I don't think that Charlie or Tex were friends with Voytek.

And I can't think of any reason why Charlie would kill everyone at Cielo Drive because of Voytek.

Not one.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Great Video Kimchi!!

I like the revolving "Shell" Gas Station sign!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Kimchi said>>>>
"As unpopular as this may seem, but I think this is too self serving...
JMO"

Kimchi...
Are you saying that Manson was 100%truthful?
That he wasn't a manipulator?

Lynn said...

I seem to remeember reading in the Road Mangler by Phil Kaufman that he was friends with Harold and they had some tapes or something of Manson.s I get the feeling that Phil Kaufman was a bit of a BSer and con artist as well. Didn't he also meet Charlie when they both were in prison?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Lynn...

Yes.
Kaufman and Manson were prison buddies.

From "The Family", page 29.

...and I quote. LOLOL

"Manson's jail friend, Phil Kaufman, was released in March.
An couple weeks later, he went out to Topanga to check out the Family.
Kaufman stayed around for a while, but found theocracy a bit overwhelming, though he remained a sympathetic cousin.
Kaufman had a friend named Harold True who came out to Topanga to visit him in March '68.
Harold True lived in an opulent house located at 3267 Waverly Drive near the Silver Lake area of Los Angeles.
Next door to True's house was a home owned by the family of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca at 3301 Waverly Drive.

Harold True met Manson and the Family through Kaufman.
Before True moved out of his Waverly house in August '68, <anson visited Waverly Drive four or five times during the summer, sleeping over twice.
True himself went out to Topanga approximately ten times to check out the lair of dope-grope."

katie8753 said...

Well we all know tried to get True to take in the family again, promising him lots of "girls". True declined it.

It's my true belief that Manson and Leno never met before August 10, 1969. I'm sure Leno didn't know him. Or Katie, Tex & Horseteeth.

katie8753 said...

"Charlie tried".

Typing too fast. LOL.

v717 said...

The first five killings took place on Cielo Drive in Benedict Canyon, Beverly Hills just after midnight on Saturday august 9 1969. Twentyfour hours later two more innocent people died on Waverly Drive in the Los Feliz section of Los Angeles near Griffith Park. I had never met any of the victims untill a few moments before their deaths. I felt no remorse for the murders no revulsion at the incredible brutality of the killings. I felt nothing at all.
Not even fear of what might happen if I were caught. Because like the rest of the family, I knew a secret The next day or the day after that Los Angeles and all the other pig cities would be in flames. It would be the Apocalypse the deserved judgement on the whole sick establishment that hated us and all the other free children the establishment that had cheated Charlie out of his genius. While the rich piggies lay butchered on their own manicured front lawns we would have found saftey. Charlie would have lead us through a secret Devils Hole into the bottomless pit an underground paradise beneath Death Valley where water from a lake would give everlasting life and you could eat fruit from twelve magical trees different one for each month of the year. That would be Charlies gift to us his children his family.
Even Without hope the certanity of escape the were nothing to be afraid of. In the months before the murders Charlie had worked with us patiently untill we had touched all our deepest fears experienced them as completely as we ever could and gone past them to come out clean on the other side. Charlie had made us see that once you die to your ego you strip yourself down to a perfect being all body like some monkey or a coyote free in the wild not thinking not willingonce you do that fear dosen´t exist anymore. You ve already died everything except that animal body of yours so even death cant frighten you. You are free. Free to live free to die free to kill.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hello v717... and Welcome!

Thanks for your contribution, but could you tell us the source?

I'm assuming this is an excerpt from someone's book.
Tex? Susan?

What's the title?

v717 said...

The first five killings took place on Cielo Drive in Benedict Canyon, Beverly Hills just after midnight on Saturday august 9 1969. Twentyfour hours later two more innocent people died on Waverly Drive in the Los Feliz section of Los Angeles near Griffith Park. I had never met any of the victims untill a few moments before their deaths. I felt no remorse for the murders no revulsion at the incredible brutality of the killings. I felt nothing at all.
Not even fear of what might happen if I were caught. Because like the rest of the family, I knew a secret The next day or the day after that Los Angeles and all the other pig cities would be in flames. It would be the Apocalypse the deserved judgement on the whole sick establishment that hated us and all the other free children While the rich piggies lay butchered on their own manicured front lawns we would have found saftey. Charlie would have lead us through a secret Devils Hole into the bottomless pit an underground paradise beneath Death Valley where water from a lake would give everlasting life and you could eat fruit from twelve magical trees different one for each month of the year. That would be Charlies gift to us his children his family.
Even Without hope the certanity of escape the were nothing to be afraid of. In the months before the murders Charlie had worked with us patiently untill we had touched all our deepest fears experienced them as completely as we ever could and gone past them to come out clean on the other side. Charlie had made us see that once you die to your ego you strip yourself down to a perfect being all body like some monkey or a coyote free in the wild not thinking not willingonce you do that fear dosen´t exist anymore. You ve already died everything except that animal body of yours so even death cant frighten you. You are free. Free to live free to die free to kill.
Excerpts from Tex Watson Autobiography
Will You Die For Me

v717 said...

I had never met any of the victims untill a few moments before their deaths. I felt no remorse for the murders no revulsion at the incredible brutality of the killings. I felt nothing at all.
Not even fear of what might happen if I were caught. Because like the rest of the family, I knew a secret The next day or the day after that Los Angeles and all the other pig cities would be in flames. It would be the Apocalypse the deserved judgement on the whole sick establishment that hated us and all the other free children While the rich piggies lay butchered on their own manicured front lawns we would have found saftey. Charlie would have lead us through a secret Devils Hole into the bottomless pit an underground paradise beneath Death Valley where water from a lake would give everlasting life and you could eat fruit from twelve magical trees different one for each month of the year. That would be Charlies gift to us his children his family.
Even Without hope the certanity of escape the were nothing to be afraid of. In the months before the murders Charlie had worked with us patiently untill we had touched all our deepest fears experienced them as completely as we ever could and gone past them to come out clean on the other side. Charlie had made us see that once you die to your ego you strip yourself down to a perfect being all body like some monkey or a coyote free in the wild not thinking not willingonce you do that fear dosen´t exist anymore. You ve already died everything except that animal body of yours so even death cant frighten you. You are free. Free to live free to die free to kill.
Excerpts from Tex Watson Autobiography
Will You Die For Me

Ken619 said...

True had moved out of the house prior to the LaBianca's moving in. True never met the LaBianca's. The story about breaking up a party with a bunch of hippies next door is just a coincidence (sp). Off the top of my head I can't remember where I read this, but I have a few times. Maybe at TTLB site had something??

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Tex Watson's book.

Cool... thanks v717!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Ken!

I believe your information is 100% accurate.

In "The Family", Sanders specifically says:

"Next door to True's house was a home 'owned by the family of' Leno and Rosemary LaBianca at 3301 Waverly Drive".

"Owned by the family of"...
indicates Leno and Rosemary weren't there yet.

If they were already there... he would have just simply stated... "next door to Leno and Rosemary".

I have to seriously grab some zzz's, as it mega-late here.

Let me quickly suggest this great footage on the Harold True/Leno subject, from BPTapes:

Ken... the first one minute, 25 seconds, are total fluff... but, then it gets real good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFaYkjadMDw&feature=player_embedded

Peace... Lynyrd

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Harold True...

Moved into 3267 Waverly, in March 1968.
Moved out, in August 1968.

"The Family", page 29.

St. Circumstance said...

Katie :) - I have read in several places that When Terry moved to his mothers beach house in Malibu- charlie went there and stole a telescope, and then asked Dennis Wilson if Terry had a telescope? Then when Dennis replied he did- Charlie said back " not any more" Plus didn't Melcher arrange for Dean to live there for awhile after he moved out... so Charlie would have know that..

I cant prove why he really went there that day- I just have a theory- but I can show you a few places where it is written that Charlie would have had to known terry was no longer living there- and if that is true- then I think my idea is a pretty good one as to why he would ask for someone he knew was not there...

I love you too- and its o.k. to think I am wrong- I might be- who knows for sure- I just dont buy H/S- and if that was not the case- then something was the case- and trying to figure out exactly what went down is tricky.... so I throw some things out there to see what makes sense... Yesterday to be honest- I got on a roll and started thinking to myself out loud lol

But I had one last thought last night in bed that might explain the answer to Labianca- and I admit this is a reach- but i just cant find anything else that fits...

read Sadies website- or any of Barbara Hoyts testimony over the years... Same thing when you listen to interviews with any of the girls... Lots of broken information, and parts of stories- but never all the details...

I believe they told the girls nothing... I think the girls heard bits and pieces- and made there re-telling based on the small amounts that they heard- filled in the missing pieces with what they believed was what happened... hoyt says she heard screaming all night and that Shorty was killed at night. Even the poeple who did is say it happened in daylight- I dont think Barbara is lying I think she was traumatized and that is how she remembers it...

These things would have been very traumatic, and trying to explain it- some simple mistakes blended with not knowing all the details= retelling the story in ways that make sense to you more than the person who is trying to understand it..

So what does it have to do with this point?

I have heard several girls- but never a single male mention Copy-cat crimes...

Go back and listen to who uses that phrase every single time...

Not Tex- Not Charlie- Not Bobby- Not Bruce- and not Clem- I have read all there parole hearings and all the books- and Tex may mention it once in passing- but not one other time will you ever see that phrase from a male...

but enough girls have said it to make you think some of them must have heard it somewhere, or gotten the idea from somewhere...

Maybe had the right motive ( copy-cat) but the wrong crime ( hinman)....

Maybe that was the motive for the second night of TLB...

Charlie would have decided he needed to do it again to strangers to divert attention away from his connections to Cielo- but then after driving around for a couple of hours not able to find a safe enough looking location- he ended up somewhere where he had some history and knew the area..

Again- its a stretch- but it would answer a few questions....

Or he wanted to start a race war and live in a hole...

Mary said...

so st, you think that Tate was a drug killing and LaBianca was a copycat killing? i guess that makes sense but why the writing at all the houses, why the excessive killing, why do you think they went overboard on all three of these murders?

St. Circumstance said...

I dont think that about Labianca- just trying to try some pieces to see if they fit- last night I thought the idea sounded silly- today- not sure lol

But I do feel stronger about Cielo- because I think it will be eventually proved that a few of the principals did know each other- and that could lead to real life motives

I contribute the things you asked about to speed, and nerves, and adrenalin...

I have never killed anyone or done anything major in my life- but have done some pranks and fraternity stunts in my time- when I was younger and drunk, and on drugs- I was shaking and nervous, and sweating and totally a different person when i was under the stress of what In was doing...

That was on beer and weed... taking someones cell phone out of there dorm room...

Imagine doing speed- and stabbing someone- not hard to imagine how quickly your blood gets going and you can become out of control... plus your nerves, and your head would be racing- when it was over- I bet even they were surprised at what had happened...

Not easy to see how a situation like that could get so gruesome once it started- plus the guilt...

if your standing there exhausted and reeling and you hear the people making moaning sounds and trying to crawl around- Tex may have just decided he couldn't handle it anymore- and went around stabbing them a last round of times- to shut them up so he wouldn't have to hear them anymore- that couldn't have been pleasant- listening to the life slowly drain out of them...

I dont know- just some ideas

Mary said...

"I dont think that about Labianca- just trying to try some pieces to see if they fit- last night I thought the idea sounded silly- today- not sure lol"

Doesn't sound silly at all...it makes sense

St. Circumstance said...

Thanks- I think it makes some sense of some things- but still many holes

katie8753 said...

Hi Circumstance.

I know that Charlie knew Terry didn't live at Cielo Drive when the murders occurred. But when did he learn that? I don't know.

I agree with you that if Tex & Dean were living at the house after Terry left and before Sharon & Roman moved in, that he must have known that. I can't imagine anything that important escaping Charlie. UNLESS....Tex didn't mention it.

Charlie went to the Cielo Drive house sometime March 23, 1969, looking for Terry Melcher. Now, did he know THEN that Terry didn't live there? I don't know. Why would he ask for Terry, knowing he wasn't there? To maybe try to find out where he was?

I do know that Terry & Candace moved out of the Cielo Drive in great haste. Candace made a comment on how surprised she was that he seemed almost panicked to get out.

He moved into his mom's Malibu pad. But I really think he was hiding from Charlie, and even if Charlie knew that Terry didn't live at Cielo Drive, he still might not know exactly where he DID live.

When was the telescope stolen? After March 23, 1969? Do you know the date.

I'm having fun debating this!!! Just some opinions and ideas that I have too.

katie8753 said...

As far as the girls discussing copy cat killings, yes I've read many times that they "claim that". Sometimes they said they discussed it, and sometimes they say they didn't.

I agree that the girls were pretty much in the dark about everything, and the only way they knew anything was to overhear the guys talking. I think they tried to fill in the blanks here and there.

In order to buy the "copy cat idea" that the girls came up with, we'd have to assume that ANY of the guys would even listen to them and do what they said. I just don't see that happening.

katie8753 said...

I totally agree that drugs were a very main reason for the violence that Tex inflicted on the victims. The overkill. I've never taken drugs, but I have talked to people who have, and they admit to doing crazy things they would not have ordinarily done.

Multiply that by 100,000 and that's the drug addled brain of Tex Watson.

St. Circumstance said...

Yeah- the dates are the crucial thing, abut who knew who was at cielo and when- I believe the dates bear out that Charlie would have known- but I would have to go look it up to be absolutely sure... I will- but not today lol- its nice out down here in South Florida- and I am off to the beach for awhile...

Then dinner with the family... have a great day everyone - and I will see you soon :)

katie8753 said...

OK thanks Circumstance. I hear ya!! Enjoy the day!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Saint said>>>>
"I believe they told the girls nothing... I think the girls heard bits and pieces- and made there re-telling based on the small amounts that they heard".

I absolutely agree.
I believe Charlie had a small group, consisting of only men, who handled, and discussed, the real business.
I believe the girls were kept in the dark.. and over-heard only bits-and-pieces.
I've always believed that.

What I'm less clear on... is exactly who comprised this "special inner men's group".
I'm guessing it was a very small group... consisting of only Manson, Bruce and Clem.
Ironically... I'm not even so sure Tex was part of that group (I think he was in the dark also)... and certainly not Paul.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I believe (as Circumstance has suggested many times) that some of the occupants at Cielo, were familiar with some of occupants at Spahn's, before the killings.

I have no direct proof, but that's my belief.

If you believe the murders had a motive, beyond Helter Skelter (that they were purposeful)... it follows, that (you must also believe) the two camps knew each other.
The two concepts, go hand-in-hand.

If they were all total strangers...
a motive beyond HS is almost impossible to devise.
Unless it was a paid "hit", I suppose... which is more likely in the LaBianca situation... but, I doubt Cielo.

Bottom line:
If you believe Cielo was not random.
If you believe Helter Skelter was bullshit.
You almost have to assume the camps knew each other, to devise a realistic motive.
If you don't... it becomes "random" again, and you're back to Helter Skelter. LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

This concept that LaBianca was the actual "copy-cat killing" the girls over-heard, is actually not that far-fetched.

After all... LaBianca has always been more of a "sticking point" for motive, than Tate.

Mary said...

I don't think I buy that anyone would actually hire Charlie to carry out a hit. He is extremely unpredictable and also talks a lot...much doesn't make sense but he does talk. But maybe I am missing something?

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: If you believe the murders had a motive, beyond Helter Skelter (that they were purposeful)... it follows, that (you must also believe) the two camps knew each other.
The two concepts, go hand-in-hand.>>>

Lynyrd, as simple as this sounds, I think the motive was simply that Charlie was pissed and wanted to strike out. He also was hoping to get some money.

I think he chose the house "where Melcher used to live" because he was trying to make a point, plus he knew "some movie stars" were living there and probably thought they'd score some dough, which at the time, he needed desperately in order to move to the desert.

I think we're overanalyzing the motive here.

Now....does that even make sense? Hell no. But when did Charlie ever make sense? No sense makes sense. HA HA.

Mary said...

but wasn't money left at the scene at the Tate house?

v717 said...

At the time of her death Rosemary LaBianca had accumulated nearly three million dollars. In 1987 an unidentified source informed author Maury Terry that Rosemary was involved in LSD distribution.
Researcher Bill Nelson was informed that Rosemary had purchased a shipment of wigs from Mexico and that said wigs came to her shop accompanied by drugs. Tex Watson sold wigs in the same area during the same period of time and so did Jay Sebring. Nelson also alleged that Rosemay and Leno were involved in stock swindling. Joel Rostau who delivered drugs to Frykowsky and Sebring on the night of the murders was also involved in organized crime and stock swindling.
Rosemay La Bianca´s daughter Susan LaBerge went on national television appearences on Pat Robertsons 700 Club on behalf of none other than Tex Watson proclaiming her love for Jesus Christ and her forgiveness of the man who had trusted a bayonett into the stomach of her mother.
Bill Nelson belives that LaBerge and Watson knew each other long before the Tate LaqBianca murders and that they had maintained a sinister friendship over all these years.

katie8753 said...

>>>Mary said: but wasn't money left at the scene at the Tate house?>>>

They took Abigail's $72 but left other valuables in the house. Sharon told them she could get money but needed time to do so.

Tex says that Charlie told him to go to that house, kill everyone there and get $800 and if they couldn't get that much, to keep going from house to house until they could get it. He wanted that money to bail out Mary & Sandy.

Tex says that after Cielo Drive he wasn't interested in going to any more houses, so I'm assuming he wasn't really interested in gathering up money either.

katie8753 said...

>>>V717 said: At the time of her death Rosemary LaBianca had accumulated nearly three million dollars. In 1987 an unidentified source informed author Maury Terry that Rosemary was involved in LSD distribution.>>>

I don't believe that. Unidentified sources are the most unreliable.


>>>Researcher Bill Nelson was informed that Rosemary had purchased a shipment of wigs from Mexico and that said wigs came to her shop accompanied by drugs. Tex Watson sold wigs in the same area during the same period of time and so did Jay Sebring.>>>

"Was informed" by who? Don't believe that either.

Jay didn't sell wigs that I know of.

>>>Nelson also alleged that Rosemay and Leno were involved in stock swindling.>>

We know that Leno was in debt due to his gambling habits, and was stealing from the company. No proof that Rosemary was involved or if she even knew about it.

>>>Joel Rostau who delivered drugs to Frykowsky and Sebring on the night of the murders was also involved in organized crime and stock swindling.>>>

So what does that mean? That everyone who is involved in organized crime knows each other and works together???

>>>Rosemay La Bianca´s daughter Susan LaBerge went on national television appearences on Pat Robertsons 700 Club on behalf of none other than Tex Watson proclaiming her love for Jesus Christ and her forgiveness of the man who had trusted a bayonett into the stomach of her mother.>>>

Suzanne LaBerge is a complete nutjob.

>>>Bill Nelson belives that LaBerge and Watson knew each other long before the Tate LaqBianca murders and that they had maintained a sinister friendship over all these years.>>>

I think Suzanne had something to do with it, but not thru Tex.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Mary said>>>>
"but wasn't money left at the scene at the Tate house"?<<<<

I've always leaned more towards drugs or retribution at Tate, for that reason.
You're right Mary... it doesn't appear they made any real effort to round-up valuables at all.

'Course, as Circumstance pointed-out earlier... sometimes when you involve large amounts of drugs (especially amphetamines), and the adrenaline starts pumping... sometimes the original plan/motive, can fly out the window.
Maybe when they had dead bodies laying everywhere, money seemed less important?

Then again... didn't they shower, and eat cheese with chocolate milk?
That kinda suggests they weren't so "shaken", as to forget the original goal. LOL

I agree Mary... it doesn't seem they made any effort to loot the place for valuables... or even cash.

---------------------------------------------

Mary said>>>>
I don't think I buy that anyone would actually hire Charlie to carry out a hit. He is extremely unpredictable and also talks a lot...much doesn't make sense but he does talk<<<<

I agree, Manson would seem like an unlikely choice.
Especially, if you assume, the "employers" were real professionals.

This certainly doesn't look like a "professional hit", by any means, I agree.

But... just for "shits and giggles", let's bear this in mind:
We're viewing this, after the fact, and hindsight is 20/20.
We know Manson let his "minions" handle his business.
We know Manson's "minions" made a complete mess of things.
We know Manson had his "minions" (LOL), take care of business to (in his mind) escape culpability.

But...
Is it possible, that an old prison connection, like Frank Carbo, might have given Manson more credit, before-hand?
Is it possible, that a guy like Carbo, may have assumed Manson would have carried-out the "hit" himself, in a more professional manner?

Also... is it possible, that it wasn't a paid hit... but rather, Manson owed some important people (such as Carbo) a favor?

Is it possible, that Manson had little choice, as his own ass may have been in a sling, and re-paying this "favor" was his way out?

I do think Leno owed large debts, to some very bad people, who weren't very happy with him.
That's the reason I keep barking up this tree.

Do I have proof-positive?
Of course not.

----------------------------------------------

Katie said>>>>
Lynyrd, as simple as this sounds, I think the motive was simply that Charlie was pissed and wanted to strike out.<<<<<

I've always believed Manson was/is a very bitter man.
I believe he felt slighted by society, and hated the "haves".
So YES... that's as good a motive theory as any other... and the most simple and direct to explain.
In that regard, it could be the most likely scenario.

V117's original post supports this notion:

"It would be the deserved judgement on the whole sick establishment that hated us and all the other free children the establishment that had cheated Charlie out of his genius".

If that doesn't exemplify bitterness... nothing does.

------------------------------------------------

V117 discussed Susan LaBerge.

I've heard the angle that LaBerge may have been in "Cahoots" with the Family before, but never explained this specifically.

I've heard in the past, that Manson may have called LaBerge a few times... to see when Leno and Rosemary were home.
Never seen any proof of that.
Then again... we have little proof on any of the theories... and her "forgiveness" of Tex, is a bit suspect.

Mary said...

"Is it possible, that Manson had little choice, as his own ass may have been in a sling, and re-paying this "favor" was his way out?"

I cannot imagine Manson ever having his ass in a sling...he plain just didn't care - only people who care get their behind in a sling. The only favor I can see anyone asking Charlie for - dope, guns, sex with his women and men..he was just totally unreliable to trust to carry out any favor, IMO.

"I do think Leno owed large debts, to some very bad people, who weren't very happy with him.
That's the reason I keep barking up this tree."

He probably did - but many people live larger than they can afford to...look at our economy now - and Leno may have owed a lot of money to a lot of bad people - but I just cannot fathom bad people hiring or asking Manson to take care of their problems. I see what you are saying - but I feel Manson was - and is - off his rocker (so to speak), unreliable, and had way too many people around him to secretly pull any hit off...whether hired by a professional or a two bit criminal...Charlie would have talked and someone else would have talked.

Remember - talk is basically what convicted Charlie. If he had of just played it cool and kept his mouth shut - he may have came out of this without landing his ass in prison. He was too full of himself and mouthy.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

As I said...
I do believe at first glance, Manson wouldn't be anyone's first choice, to carry-out a professional hit, for an organized crime group.
It does seem unlikely, especially what we know about how the family did in-fact carry-out these murders.

I still don't think it's entirely impossible however.

When you start getting into crime and criminals... sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

Manson ended-up in Lotsapoppa's living room, over an issue that Tex created.
Manson had his ass in a major sling that day.
He had a 300 pound black guy staring him down, and TJ too afraid to pull the gun.
Manson literally painted himself into a corner, and had to commit (as he thought) murder, to get out of there.
It's the old... "what a tangled web we weave"... scenario.

I bet if you told Manson two weeks prior, that he was going to be blowing Crowe's chest apart, in his downtown apartment... Manson would have thought you were crazy.

I've just seen way too many pathetic gamblers in my life... and it always leads to violence in the end.
Leno had gone through 200 thousand dollars in the late 60's.
To give that some perspective... my Dad bought his home in '64 for 13k.

I just can't go along with you Mary, that this angle is impossible.
We'll have to agree to dis-agree on this one.

It states on Leno's homicide report (I believe that's where I read it), that Leno's gambling habit, was the first angle the LAPD pursued.
That was their first logical guess, regarding motive.

Mary said...

oh no darlin, I did not mean it was impossible...improbable...but not impossible.

I agree with you and it is as good a theory as any. I would never totally discount it - just engaging into a conversation...I totally understand what you are saying

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

OK... maybe it wasn't the homicide report where I read that (about the investigation).

I'm not seeing it there.

This is kinda intersting though:

"Investigation revealed that since 1964 he had misappropriated approximately $200,000 from the company treasury. This apparently was to finance his chronic gambling habits, thoroughbred horse racing in particular . He frequented the local racetracks every racing day and it would not be uncommon for him to wager $500 a day.

Even though the LaBianca's lived expensively, their properties were extensively mortgaged and had personal loans totaling $30,000".

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Mary...

It may not have anything to do with Leno's gambling issue.
I agree with you there.

Generally speaking, organized crime groups DO NOT hire a bunch of post-pubescent hippie whackos, high on dope, to go on a blood bath. LOLOL

The problem with this case however, is that, you have to consider the "senseless" in your motive search... 'cuz, as katie suggested, everything these folks did was senseless.

Charlie could screw-up a wet dream. LOL

When you think about it... Manson was in many regards, a poor candidate for being a "criminal" in general.
Did he ever commit a crime he got away with? LOL

So who konws?

They only thing I do know for sure, is that criminals will only wait so long for their money... and once they know you're not going to pay, they send someone after you. LOL

I believe it's possible someone, may have put more faith in Manson, than they should have.

Carbo... the guy that everyone fingers as the most likely "contract guy"... was in jail at this time.
I'm almost sure of it.
Maybe Carbo wasn't quite clear what exactly Manson had been using his last 3 years of freedom for. LOL

Maybe the last time Carbo connected with Manson... Manson didn't have a harum, and a major drug trade. LOL

Hahahaha

Or, as Saint said:
"Maybe he really was just killing everyone, and planning on living in a hole"! LOL

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sometimes I go full circle on this, and believe Katie is right.

Maybe Manson was just an angry little man, who snapped... and that's all there is to it.

That theory, is as hard to dis-prove as any other... probably harder to dis-prove, due to it's simplicity.

katie8753 said...

The Labianca murders are the biggest mystery of all. There is absolutely no connection at all between Manson and them. There's no proof they/she was selling drugs, taking drugs, etc.

I'm convinced that the LaBianca house was an intended hit. But why?

We know that Leno was in trouble with gambling debts. A gambler always thinks "this time I'll win". I'm sure he was betting big at the end for the big payola he was expecting and never got. He had taken money from the supermarket, but probably had to borrow more somewhere. Not from the bank...they wouldn't loan it. From a loan shark?

I'm not sure how the underworld folks take care of problems, but it seems to me that they issue an edict "pay up or else".

So I understand Lynyrd's logic in that. Not quite sure how it connects to Charlie.

We know that Charlie had made friends with several underworld people in prison, so he did know them. And he was a mover/shaker and they knew that.

Maybe he did owe someone a favor, or maybe they promised a big payola if he offed Leno. But why Rosemary?

BTW, the girls came up with the copy cat motive AFTER Charlie, et al were imprisoned and charged with murder. Charlie wanted them to take the heat off him, so they concocted that story.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, I agree with you that the biggest possible motive for the LaBianca killings was his enormous debt.

But...that's as far as I can connect the dots!!

Oh, BTW, I was just thinking about that earlier post, about Rosemary importing wigs & drugs.

She must have ad a big sign on her dress shop window:

"BUY 2 WIGS...AND GET A LID FOR 99 CENTS!!""

HA HA HA HA.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Katie...

I don't think any organized crime unit, would have added Rosemary to the list, or singed-on for this kind of blood-bath circus knowingly.

The only way this makes sense... is if someone put faith in Manson... that Manson would carry this out alone, and professionally.

Manson, then in turn (in typical manson form), assigned his resposibilty to the "geek squad". LOLOL

The more I discuss this... the more I realise Mary is probably right. AHahahaha

It's sounding more and more bizarre, as I type. LOLOL

Leno did have loan sharks that hated him though... I can guarantee that much.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

If it's any consolation...
Leno likely would have been killed shortly by orgainzed crime loan sharks anyway.

Too bad for Rosemary though.

Mary said...

"The more I discuss this... the more I realise Mary is probably right. AHahahaha

It's sounding more and more bizarre, as I type. LOLOL"

Mary may be right and that is bizarre??? :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sometimes being left alone with your thoughts is a scary thing. : )

I stopped trying to convince Mary 2 paragraphs ago... and was left, trying to convince myself! AHahahaha

There's nothing worse than going back, and reading your own posts, and wondering what the hell you're talking about. LMAO!

katie8753 said...

>>>Lynyrd said: The only way this makes sense... is if someone put faith in Manson... that Manson would carry this out alone, and professionally.

Manson, then in turn (in typical manson form), assigned his resposibilty to the "geek squad". LOLOL>>>

You could be right on the money there. Manson turned it over to the "killing field" and they overkilled both of them.

I do, however, think his gambling debt has a lot to do with this.


>>>Mary said: Mary may be right and that is bizarre??? :)>>>

No he didn't say that you're being right was bizarre, he was saying his writings are bizarre.

Although I don't think they are that bizarre, I think that he is on the right track, just made a u-turn somewhere, cuz it's really hard to hit the nail on the head.

But we'll keep trying!!! LOL.

Mary said...

"No he didn't say that you're being right was bizarre, he was saying his writings are bizarre."

I know, it was a feeble attempt at a joke. Sorry :)

katie8753 said...

>>>Mary said: "No he didn't say that you're being right was bizarre, he was saying his writings are bizarre."

I know, it was a feeble attempt at a joke. Sorry :)>>>

No offense taken my dear!!!

I LOVE your input!!!


HA HA HA.

v717 said...

There is an FBI profiler, John Douglas who interviwed Manson at least a couple of times and he says that Manson didn´t have anything to do with the murders. What happened was that Manson lost control of the group.
I think Blue and Red is telling the true when they say that the motive for the murders was to get Bobby out of jail. So the girls decided to commit copy cat murders letting the police to belive that the perpetrator was still at large.
What was it Manson used to say? No sense makes sense.
That´s make sense to me.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi V717.

The Copy-Cat theory is possible, but it's not a theory I subscribe to strongly.
I have a few reasons for that.

#1) The only one's (to my knowledgae) that have ever pushed the "copy-cat" story on an on-going basis, are Red and Blue.
You gotta wonder, why aren't the others mentioning this motive?

Also, if you watch interviews with Lynn and Sandy, they continue to justify the murders, which in my mind, decreases their credibilty immensely.
Bottom line: anyone who continues to justify these murders, cannot be completely sane... so how much weight can you really assign to their word?

2) "Copycat" could explain Tate... but, Manson tied-up Leno LaBianca.
He's admitted this, point-blank in interviews.
If Manson had lost control of the group, and several people were killed at Tate, against his will/knowledge... why would CM go to LaBianca (knowing full-well what happened the night before), and tie-up Leno?

3)The Copy-Cat motive isn't too far-fetched... but, I have a real hard time with the "Manson lost control of the group" concept.

During the trial, Manson shaved his head... and they all shaved their heads.
Manson carved an "X", and they all carved an "X".
Manson stood-up and yelled words in Latin... they all did.
The girls held vigils outside the courthouse... even crawling across town on their hands and knees.
Heck... Sandy and Lynn, have devoted their entire lives to (figuratively) following Manson... long after he'd been incarcerated.

If the motive was indeed Copy-Cat... which is possible (but not probable), Manson was aware and approved.
That's my humble conclusion... for what it's worth.

katie8753 said...

From Helter Skelter: The True Story of the Mansons Murders by V. Bugliosi:

"On January 25, 1971, guilty verdicts were returned against the four defendants on each of the 27 separate counts against them. Not far into the trial's penalty phase, the jurors saw, at last, the defense that Manson—in the prosecution's view—had planned to present. Atkins, Krenwinkel, and Van Houten testified the murders had been conceived as "copycat" versions of the Hinman murder, for which Atkins now took credit. The killings, they said, were intended to draw suspicion away from Bobby Beausoleil, by resembling the crime for which he had been jailed. This plan had supposedly been the work of, and carried out under the guidance of, not Manson, but someone allegedly in love with Beausoleil—Linda Kasabian. Among the narrative's weak points was the inability of Atkins to explain why, as she was maintaining, she had written "political piggy" at the Hinman house in the first place."

The girls came up with this theory after Charlie was convicted in order to take the heat off Charlie, as per Charlie's orders. Didn't work though. Nobody bought it.

v717 said...

1. The only one's to my knowledgae that have ever pushed the copy-cat story on an on going basis, are Red and Blue.
You gotta wonder why aren't the others mentioning this motive
Catherine Gillies nickname Cappy also mentions it.
Also, if you watch interviews with Lynn and Sandy, they continue to justify the murders, which in my mind, decreases their credibilty immensely.
Bottom line: anyone who continues to justify these murders, cannot be completely sane... so how much weight can you really assign to their word?
It is not exactly clear how Mansons followers understood him. They might have heard things wich he never intended to say perhaps they took him more literally than he intended. Ruth ANN Morehouse nickname Ouish saw that two interpretations were possible. She told her friend Barbara Hoyt nickname Lipsett. We all have to go through Helter Skelter. If we don’t do it in our heads, we will have to do it physically. If you don’t die in your head, you’ll die when it comes down.” So probably when Lynn and Sandy justify the murders they are talking about Die in your head. Do you get it This is one of Mansons mindgames.
2) Copycat could explain Tate but Manson tied up Leno LaBianca.
He's admitted this, point blank in interviews.
If Manson had lost control of the group, and several people were killed at Tate, against his will/knowledge... why would CM go to LaBianca knowing full well what happened the night before and tie-up Leno

It was the girls who came up with the Copycat scheme. Charlie didn´t want to have anything to do with it but after all they had given him his first sense of belonging and love he´d ever known. He felt obliged to stay and help them through their deeds.
The reason why Charlie went to LaBianca is easy: The murders at Shaon Tates home had been a bloody orgy. What if Tex or some of the girls would be hurt or even killed during the rampage That´s why Charlie tied up Leno so he wouldn´t be able to defend himself.
3 I will try in short to give some clues of what Manson is for kind of person. Charles Manson is a very advanced human being.
According to former Manson follower Paul Watkins, in the summer of 68 he and Charlie dropped into the church of Scientology branch in downtown LA and Manson asked the receptionist What do you do after clear When the receptionist was unable to tell Charlie anything he hadn t already done he walked out.
L Ron Hubbard and later David Miscavige and a whole bunch of other “mental elites” in other “thought religions” and areas of the world probably knew and still know that Manson was light years from their minds and ideas. Even though they themselves are and were very powerful they had nothing against a type of man such as Manson. They most likely feared him. Manson is a genuine Shaman.
Manson s only weakness lies in a concept not brought to much attention despite its presence in every day life in these modern days. Information overflow. He shared HIS world to his family giving them a brand new perspective on the world one which became too much for them to handle. According to Manson himself in the San Quentin interview and actually in ONE of his parole hearings stating comparatively the same thing with Neul Emmens next to him when asked if he felt remorse or guilt he stated There is not need to feel guilty I haven’t done anything I m ashamed of pausing and thinks Maybe I didn’t do enough I might be ashamed for that For not giving enough, for not being aware enough.. for not being more perceptive.. for being stupid. Then he “twists to confuse in the end “Maybe I should have killed 400-500 people then I would have felt better then I would have felt like I REALLY offered society something What he regretted was probably that he did not think more of HOW he put down the words to his family the impact it would have and what potential consequences there would be if he told them just about everything that was going on in his mind. He could not calculate it all

katie8753 said...

Okay V717, you're not making sense. Please use punctuation and if you could, and few paragraph divisions. I think we've covered all this, but I'm not sure.

The copy cat motives were thought of during the penalty phase. Charlie wanted the girls to take the blame, and especially to blame Linda K. because she "ratted them out".

Charlie was always in control, and if you don't think so, you need to re-read all the material on this guy.

Never, ever at any time, in anything you read about Charlie's actual quotes, do you ever hear him say that he was ruled by anyone.

v717 said...

To Katie 8753
I am sorry about the punctuations and the parafraph division. But it´s not my fault. The program accepts only a limitied amount of characters. So I had to cut here and there.

The copy cat motives were thought of during the penalty phase. Charlie wanted the girls to take the blame, and especially to blame Linda K. because she "ratted them out".
It´s true that Linda K rattled them out. But Susan Atkins was actually the one who broke the case when she talked to a cellmate about the murders. But you are forgetting something here. Charlie is not condemned for murder. Charlie is condemned för "conspiracy to murder." Even Bug admitts that he could not pin the crime to Manson directly so he had to come up with something that would convince the jury that Manson was behind it all. Due to time-restricions he couldn´t come up with anything else then the now "infamous HELTER SKELTER motive." Manson wasn´t allowed to hold his defence speach in front of the jury because Bug had convinced the judge that Manson´s persuasive powers would be to much for the jury and they would have found him "not guilty." But it also proves that Bug knew that he didn´t have such strong hands in the case and that he run the risk to be beaten in his own profession by a small-time hustler.

Charlie was always in control, and if you don't think so, you need to re-read all the material on this guy.
According to FBI-profiler John Douglas Charlie lost controll of the group.

Never, ever at any time, in anything you read about Charlie's actual quotes, do you ever hear him say that he was ruled by anyone.
That´s true. But he is also saying to other people: "It´s not my busines what other people do; I say to them do what you think is right!"

Kimchi said...

I too understood that the girls' suggested the copy-cat murder to get Bobby out of jail - before the Tate murders...

Something to the effect that one of the girls had seen it in a movie - to try and steer the cops the other way..

Seems plausable - look at the autopsy photos - both Abigail and Sharon had their cheeks slashed - not as bad as Gary's - but similar...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

V717...

Thanks for your post.

I agree with much of what you're saying... I've just been too busy to reply, the last 24 hours.

I will get to it though...
I'm not intentionally ignoring you.

Thanks Again!
Lynyrd