Friday, April 15, 2011

Judge Keene Revokes Manson's Right To Defend Himself.
Family Reacts...  Part II

Keene said>>>>>
“I’m satisfied, that if you went to trial before a jury on charges as complex as these… it would be a fundamental denial of due process“.

I’ve often thought to myself, that Keene was protecting himself, (and the trial) legally, with this move. I’m not a lawyer, but it seems obvious to me, that if Keene allowed Manson to represent himself throughout, it could easily, have been considered grounds for a mis-trial (after the fact).  Keene’s statement strongly supports my long-standing theory. Keene states clearly... “it would be a fundamental denial of due process”. Once “due process” goes out the window like old bath water, you’ve got a re-trial situation, on your hands. I’m sure Manson had a handle on this concept, and was dealing his “self representation card”, with that re-trial concept, in the back of his mind… as a wild card. He could represent himself, and still cry foul afterwards, that he didn’t get a fair trial. Legally… Manson would probably have had a good leg to stand on. Keene was obviously well aware of walking that line… and avoiding a “due process” issue after-the-fact.  Manson also tried to cause a mis-trial, with the Nixon Headline… did he not? I think Manson was “keenly” (pun intended) aware of the possibility of a second trial, if he was allowed represent himself… and that’s a second reason, he was so upset, he lost his right.

>>>>Keene appointed Charles Hollopeter of Pasadena, to defend Manson.  Keene said that if Manson wanted to choose another attorney, he will be glad to substitute him for Hollopeter, a veteran criminal lawyer”. 

If this Hollopeter, was a veteran criminal lawyer, Manson was likely foolish, to swap him for Kanarek. I’d like to know more about this Charles Hollopeter, and why Manson chose to swap him, just out of sheer curiosity.

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24 comments:

katie8753 said...

This is funny stuff!!!

"You're incapable of eating or taking a shower".

HA HA. Well they didn't have those "new fangled showers" at the ranch. He was used to eating garbage. Oh....that's right, we're talking prison food. HA HA.

"He requested the 2 deputy DA's be jailed so they would have the same restrictions".

Now that makes sense....to a maniac. LOL.

Well if you look at it that way, should't everyone involved in the legal system pertaining to this case be in jail? Makes it "more even".

"He wanted the court to address him as Charlie".

HOO HOO. Gotta love it.

"Your Honor, just call me Charlie".

Well at least he didn't asked to be addressed as "Jesus". HA HA HA HAHA.

You know if Charlie had been able to represent himself, this trial might still be going on, 40+ years later!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Katie said>>>
"You know if Charlie had been able to represent himself, this trial might still be going on, 40+ years later"!


LOLOL
I have to admit.. that was pretty funny.
He'd probably still be questioning his first witness... or relating his opening statement. : )

"...and then there's the time I was down in Big Sur, with a hooker"... "did, I tell you about Big Sur?" LOL

"Columbus sailed on an ocean, but it's not the same ocean"... "it's a different ocean, it's a different world". LOL
"Now is the only thing that matters".
"You can't prove anything".
"I ask you dear jury... Whaddya wanna call me a murderer for?".

At the Bailiff:
"I could pick up this book, and beat you over the head with it, and I wouldn't feel a thing... it'd be like (pause), going to the grocery store". LOL

At 50 year old female juror:
"I'm no sunday school teacher woman... I'm an outlaw"!

Closing statement:
"Maybe I shoulda killed 5 or 6 thousand people... then I would have felt like, I really offered society something. LOLOL

Eh... Charlie's a hot shit.
You can't help but like the guy, on some level.
He's got a sense of humor anyway.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I picked-up some software, and cleaned-up the two police reports a few threads back... if anyone wants to scroll down, and take a look.

You can actually read them now!! LOL

katie8753 said...

HA HA HA.

On day 14,600:

Bugliosi: Your Honor, I submit....

Charlie: I OBJECT!

Judge: On what grounds?

Charlie: On these grounds.

Judge: Come again?

Charlie: I already did.

Judge: You're about to be in contempt!

Charlie: I was there one day for about a year.

Judge: We've spent enough time on this nonsense.

Charlie: There is no time. There's only NOW!

Judge: Bailiff, whack his pee-pee.

HA HA HA.

Oh that Charlie. He's the clown that makes the dark side fun. LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

I actually want to make some serious commentary on this piece, but haven't had the chance.

Maybe I'll have more time this evening.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Enough Clowning… Back to the subject at hand.

Keene said>>>>>
“I’m satisfied, that if you went to trial before a jury on charges as complex as these… it would be a fundamental denial of due process“.

I’ve often thought to myself, that Keene was protecting himself, (and the trial) legally, with this move.
I’m not a lawyer, but it seems obvious to me, that if Keene allowed Manson to represent himself throughout, it could easily, have been considered grounds for a mis-trial (after the fact).
Keene’s statement strongly supports my long-standing theory.
Keene states clearly... “it would be a fundamental denial of due process”.
Once “due process” goes out the window like old bath water, you’ve got a re-trial situation, on your hands.
I’m sure Manson had a handle on this concept, and was dealing his “self representation card”, with that re-trial concept, in the back of his mind… as a wild card.
He could represent himself, and still cry foul afterwards, that he didn’t get a fair trial.
Legally… Manson would probably have a good leg to stand on.
Keene was obviously well aware of walking that line… and avoiding a “due process” issue after-the-fact.
Manson also tried to cause a mis-trial, with the Nixon Headline… did he not?
I think Manson was “keenly” (pun intended) aware of the possibility of a second trial, if he was allowed represent himself… and that’s a second reason, he was so upset, he lost his right.


----------------------------------------------

>>>>>“Keene appointed Charles Hollopeter of Pasadena, to defend Manson.
Keene said that if Manson wanted to choose another attorney, he will be glad to substitute him for Hollopeter, a veteran criminal lawyer”.


If this Hollopeter, was a veteran criminal lawyer, Manson was likely foolish, to swap him for Kanarek.
I’d like to know more about this Charles Hollopeter, and why Manson chose to swap him, just out of sheer curiosity.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

A very reliable source, informed me, that Hollopeter was swapped-out because he wanted Charlie to have a psych exam.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, Charlie, without a doubt, was trying to make this trial into a circus.

Any tactic he could come up with, from making silly, ungrantable demands, to having his family cause trouble.

I think his reasoning was at least three fold:

1: Get attention,

2: Be granted a mistrial,

3: Confuse the jury to sway their opinion.

If his intent was #3, he went about it all wrong.

The jury wasn't comprised of a bunch of mixed up hippies looking for love.

Charlie only made it harder on himself with all his shenanigans, proving the DA's case for him, that Charlie was the leader who hyponized his poor followers to commit murder.

I can't conceive of any possible, laudible reason that Charlie would be granted another trial.

That would be a complete waste of time and money.

Charlie still wants attention!!

katie8753 said...

Charlie was going to be on trial for murder. Not just murder, but the most heinous crime ever committed at the time in this country.

And he makes silly demands like locking up the Deputy DAs???

That's pathetic.

katie8753 said...

Charles Hollopeter defended Jimmy Smith in the Onion Field murders trial in 1969.

Jimmy's previous attorney?? Irving Kanarek.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Interesting Katie.

It seems Hollopeter is quite highly regarded.

He defended an Ex-Black Panther, named Geronimo Pratt, also.

Evidently, Hollopeter was doing excellent, until Johnnie Cochran took over for him... and screwed things up big-time.

"Pratt’s chief counsel had been Charles Hollopeter, a seasoned defense attorney, who put on such a capable defense that the jury was hung throughout 10 days of deliberations before it finally reached its verdict.

Hollopeter had been on the case for a year and a half before Cochran joined the defense — only after Hollopeter asked the judge to appoint a black lawyer to corral Panther alibi witnesses who were refusing to cooperate with the white lawyer.

Sadly, after Hollopeter and Cochran thoroughly undermined the prosecution’s witnesses, Cochran blundered by introducing a key piece of evidence that allowed the prosecution to claim the defense alibi was a lie.
The verdict turned on this one piece of evidence, and Pratt went to prison".


Turns out, Cochran was able to defend Pratt a second time many years later (with newfound evidence), and got Pratt freed... with a handsome settlement.
I think I'd rather forgo the settlement... and avoid many years in prison! : )

Full Story here:
http://www.laweekly.com/2005-04-07/news/if-the-glove-fits/

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, good work.

This is from http://johnniecochran.blogspot.com/:

"In truth, beginning with the original trial, Cochran's role had been somewhat less abiding and heroic than he claimed. Pratt's chief counsel had been Charles Hollopeter ...."

... a seasoned defense attorney, who put on such a capable defense that the jury was hung throughout ten days of deliberations before it finally reached its verdict. Hollopeter had been on the case for a year and a half before Cochran joined the defense -- only after Hollopeter asked the judge to appoint a black lawyer to corral Panther alibi witnesses who were refusing to cooperate with the white lawyer."

Well we already know what Johnny Cochran did for O.J.

A black lawyer for a black client.

Mr. Hollopeter was definitely a white guy.

Charlie shouldn't have had any fears in that regard.

It Charlie had been smart, he'd have stuck with him.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Charles M. said that Mr. Hollopeter offered him an 18 month plea bargain, agreed by the prosecution, if only he, Charles, would rat out the real "mastermind". Got that -- eighteen months, with time served! He could have been out in a year. This was a deal that Mr. Bugliosi agreed to originally!!!

Charles did not want to be a snitch and so he turned the offer down, which enraged the prosecution. Mr. Hollopeter begged Charles to take it, upon which, Charles fired him.

Mr. Hollopeter is still alive and in the area; he is retired. I s'pose you could ask him.

Charles WAS denied pro per... just cuz the judge doesn't like what you have to say doesn't remove your right to say it in court!

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Charles did NOT fire Mr. Holopeter cuz he refused to take the psych exam. Charles DID take the psych exam! That wasn't the problem. The issue was ratting out the higher up person, which he wasn't gonna do.

AGain, you don't believe me, talk to Mr. Hollopeter, he is still alive.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

((((((((((AC))))))))))

Great to see you AC!

I read a lot of information at this location, regarding Hollopeter. There's 4 articles here, that are quite interesting:

http://truthontatelabianca.com/forum/219-charles-hollopeter/

Like everything else in this case, there's 2-3 versions.

Hope All's well with you AC!!!

Peace... Lynyrd

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

AC...
You got your picture back!!!! LOL

BTW... you look really beautiful in your YouTube photo! Sweet!!!
Your hair almost looks blonde... must have been the sunlight.

St. Circumstance said...

Good Stuff AC- news to me

katie8753 said...

Hi AC. Good to see you again.

Thanks for the info!

katie8753 said...

>>>AC said: Charles M. said that Mr. Hollopeter offered him an 18 month plea bargain, agreed by the prosecution, if only he, Charles, would rat out the real "mastermind". >>>

Who was the real "mastermind"?? I thought Charlie was.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Wow... Great question Katie!

Who was the real mastermind AC?

------------------------------------------

Maybe we can get AC to "snitch". LOLOL

Squeaky:
"Oh, snitches will be dealt with". hahaha

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

I don't know, whomever was giving directions about who should have "enforcement" performed on them at that time and place. It is someone with connections to the bike club, the drug sales ladder in that region, illegal gambling and porn. I think the Col. is onto something with that one bodyguard dude. However I don't know the shot-caller's name. If they told me they'd have to kill me, hahahaha! But it's not Charles. The bike club mechanic is NOT the guy who gives orders to everyone else. It's said that Danny DeCarlo was Pres. of the Straight Satans but that is not true, he was just a member. I bet DeCarlo knew, though. I further bet that individual did time with Charles at one time or another.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

I dunno why sometimes this account works and sometimes it doesn't, either. The other account has no photo. Computers are weird.

Matt said...

Hellopeter is alive? The news clipping on TOTL that Lynyrd references says he was 59 at the time of the trial. That would make him 101 now.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

LMAO!

Welcome Matt!
I know... I did some quick numbers, and it seemed a bit un-realistic to me as well.
Turns-out "Zed is Dead"! : )