tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post6336266334568753821..comments2024-03-19T21:34:44.985-04:00Comments on The Tate-LaBianca Homicide Research Blog: Leslie Van Houten petitioning for release of Tex TapesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-14889210206072660742017-11-10T21:49:55.671-05:002017-11-10T21:49:55.671-05:00Yeah but she said that during the penalty phase of...Yeah but she said that during the penalty phase of the trial where she was lying her blaggers off. Don't forget, in that phase, she placed herself and not Mary Brunner in the Hinman crime and supported Susan as the killer of Gary, both of which we know are not true. Or are you going to argue that ? You can't have one without the other.<br />Leslie's interview was after Susan's story but that's kind of irrelevant. Of course Part was aware of Susan's story and as he was representing Leslie, he wanted to know how much credence it had. When it came out that Leslie went all with it, he wanted her evaluated as he didn't think she was fit to stand trial as he felt she must be insane. It's kind of pointless saying that he coached her ~ of course he did. He knew the questions to ask her to elicit the replies that he wanted because he'd talked to her before. You can hear that in the tape. He mentions things they've already talked about.<br />Marvin Part was doing the best he could for his client. He thought she was insane and by getting her to say her story on tape, he thought no judge would allow her to stand for trial or that her insanity defence would be a powerful one. In the end his plan didn't work because the judge wouldn't listen to the tape, the 3 psychiatrists that did said she was sane and most importantly, Leslie, feeling a little guilty after landing Charlie, Tex, Susan, Linda and Pat in it, sacked Part as part of her showing Charlie that she was back in his fold.<br />In retrospect, Leslie may well regret how she played her hand. She was offered immunity, even if she was one the murderers {Mike McGann said this to her before Susan went to the Grand Jury} and turned it down, she had a chance at a psych defence and moved away from that.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-32819124674375548032017-09-01T15:16:32.838-04:002017-09-01T15:16:32.838-04:00The interview with Marvin Part would be incredible...The interview with Marvin Part would be incredible if it happened before Susan's story leaked.Did it?I really don't know. If it was after Susan's story I put zero stock in it. It would be obvious this was a ploy to jump on board Susan's fantastic story and go for an insanity defense.Which was his plan. Leslie herself said it was all BS that part coached her to say.Brian Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16414617578066378757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-52543012980429687782017-05-28T19:37:55.544-04:002017-05-28T19:37:55.544-04:00leary7 said...
if you had to choose who would you... leary7 said...<br /><br /><b>if you had to choose who would you rather have as a neighbor - Nancy or Leslie?</b><br /><br />No contest, Leslie. It's irrational on my part and based on intangible things but I've always found something really odious about Nancy Pitman. In a curious way, maybe it's because she didn't kill, she never had to truly confront who she was and the mindset that went with that whole <i>schtick</i> whereas the incarcerated killers did. They were ultimately defeated by the society that they challenged, dropped out of and violated. And society forced them to admit that they had been wrong and the society for all its wrongs and faults was better than anything that they had come up with in its place.<br />No small thing.<br />Nancy on the other hand, carried on her merry way, following the same trajectory and keeping at least one foot entrenched in criminality and spawned a new generation of crime magnets. <br />I think Leslie is where she deserves to be but I'd rather have her as a next door neighbour because for one thing, she profoundly regrets her journey and destination. I'd hate for that Marvin Part interview of December '69 to be the thing that I'd be remembered by. grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-68318433049880591862017-05-28T19:22:18.676-04:002017-05-28T19:22:18.676-04:00Dilligaf said...
How do you change the mindse... Dilligaf said...<br /><br /> <b>How do you change the mindset that murder is okay at the time of commission?</b> <br /><br />I don't know. But plenty of people have done. It could be a combination of many things, including an attempt on the life of the murderer. Many never change that mindset but everyone <i>can</i>, the same way that any human being can experience a change in any mindset they happen to hold at a given time, be it a wholesome or foul one.<br /><br /> <b>God wants more than someone deciding not to murder again</b> <br /><br />True, but deciding not to murder again is an important place to be, especially if one is not/no longer justifying their past murders.<br /><br /><b>or trying to justify their prior acts</b><br /><br />This is an important point because many murderers, even those that reacted to years of abuse and snapped, continue to justify their actions. When it comes to coming to God, there are no justifications for <i>anything</i>. How could a person need saving if some of the things for which they need saving were justifiable ? It doesn't fly with God. <br /><br /><b>Given another chance does not mean being release into society</b><br /><br />Of course it doesn't, but it may do. And certainly, someone that has come to Christ, having fully taken on board what it meant for Christ to take the punishment for our sins on his own self and being guided in the new life, will want to live out some of that life out of prison ~ if there is the possibility to do so. It's not a divine right, it's not something any prisoner "deserves" but provision is made for it in many circumstances.<br /><br /> <b>it is being accepted by God, even in prison</b><br /><br />This is what Davis, Atkins and Watson discovered in jail. Many that don't share their faith hate the fact that any of them could say that they are {or in Atkins' case, were} forgiven by God but the reality is that they are. They will also know that there is every chance that they will die in jail and cannot complain about that and that even if that be the case they will still be loved and accepted by God.<br /><br /> <b>God takes no position on parole</b><br /><br />Perhaps on parole in general. But we don't know exactly his thoughts on specific people and their parole. What I would say is that God has shown us the supreme example of granting people that have murdered a chance to put it all behind them {Cain, Moses, David etc} but it always came with a caveat, as does any parole granting in the modern day.<br />If people choose to stay who they <i>were</i>, that's one thing. If they work hard at moving well away from who they were, then they really don't fall into the same category. As ever, it's difficult to be general about this matter, case by case is the only way to make head or tail of it.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-86744172243267439072017-05-25T10:09:37.499-04:002017-05-25T10:09:37.499-04:00Leary,
If I had my choice, I would have my own c...Leary, <br /><br />If I had my choice, I would have my own compound, for much like family, you don't always get to choose your neighbors.<br /><br />However, neither would be my first choice as both have what I consider to be very serious character flaws that manifested themselves not just once, but numerous times. Whether it be deflecting responsibility upon others, or repeatedly becoming involved in behavior that is detrimental not just to individuals but to society as a whole.Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-7325158058266626062017-05-25T01:42:26.059-04:002017-05-25T01:42:26.059-04:00The concept of human duality is one of the most ch...The concept of human duality is one of the most challenging subjects. There are many who believe we all have the devil inside us...but that some are more prone to its unleashing than others. For most of us, however, it is hard to see a devil in Mother Theresa or Tom Hanks just as it is impossible to see goodness in Manson or Koresch or Jim Jones.<br />TLB is a case study in human duality. Not with Charlie so much because his own self-analysis claimed pure evil. But the others seem to have been decent folk at some point in their lives prior to TLB and certainly many became good citizens afterwards. That in fact is why I continue to be fascinated by TLB and the Family. The book I would love to read is a solid depiction and description of Family members NOW and how they quelled the evil inside them that was unleashed at Spahn, Is Mary a nice person now? Is Ruth Ann? We know that Leslie and Pat have become nice women and dedicated to doing good. How did they make that journey?<br />Can somebody come back from being a murderer? If you think of human behavior on spectrum of good and evil than certainly people can move on that spectrum due to external factors some do it thru Jesus like Sadie and Tex, the two most evil members of the Family besides Charlie. Some just do it through age and maturing. But there is also the real possibility that others like Cappy and Sandy and Nancy still believe in Manson and his rap. THey still have strong anti-social hatreds that given the right circumstances and influences could bubble up.<br />Seriously, Dill, if you had to choose who would you rather have as a neighbor - Nancy or Leslie?leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-27227763735120458672017-05-24T23:43:20.399-04:002017-05-24T23:43:20.399-04:00How does one come back from being a murderer? How...How does one come back from being a murderer? How do you change the mindset that murder is okay at the time of commission? I would never question anyone's faith, but to me, God wants more than someone deciding not to murder again, or trying to justify their prior acts. Given another chance does not mean being release into society, it is being accepted by God, even in prison. God takes no position on parole.Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-76328117959394319152017-05-24T17:16:22.638-04:002017-05-24T17:16:22.638-04:00Dilligaf said...
In the US, society has moved... Dilligaf said...<br /><br /> <b>In the US, society has moved towards an excuse makes everything okay, that it is not my fault, it is someone else's</b><br /><br />It's not only the US, it happens frequently here in the UK too.<br />I do not deal in excuses. I am interested however, in reasons. Reasons can never absolve a person from responsibility for what they've done but I'm duty bound to take the God line which is that a person, while not being able to change what they have done, <i>can</i> change the mindset that brought them there {usually with much help} and <i>can</i> be given another chance. Will everyone given another chance never screw up ? Of course not. But life is a continuum consisting of many different phases, some of which we mess up at times.<br />If one's wife/husband/partner was caught in bed with someone else, could they come back from that ? In reality, for many the answer would be 'no.' For others it would be 'maybe' and for others still, it would be 'yes' ~ tentatively. <br />People come back from all kinds of things and ultimately it's down to whether someone is prepared to <i>allow</i> that, kind of like Suzan LaBerge did.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-61948631077018195442017-05-18T12:56:16.991-04:002017-05-18T12:56:16.991-04:00"Many come back from the worst of deeds"..."Many come back from the worst of deeds".<br /><br />If those deeds include either the willful taking of a life, or the molestation of a young child, exactly what is there to come back from. In either crime, the perpetrator knows what they did was wrong, but did it anyway. There is no moral debate of it is okay in this instance, but not in another instance. Wrong is wrong, and there are certain things that rehabilitation will not change. The convicted's perspective may change, they may perform well in a controlled prison environment, but the damage is done from which there is no coming back for the victim(s). I have no problem with an inmate saying that something happened in their life that caused them to become who they are, but it does not excuse what they did, nor should it. In the US, society has moved towards an excuse makes everything okay, that it is not my fault, it is someone else's. That may make a murderer feel better, but it is not his, or her, feelings that I am concerned with. It is the victims, and society, that require protection from, such soft-headed approaches...Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-26007836925960081742017-05-17T14:32:27.534-04:002017-05-17T14:32:27.534-04:00Dilligaf said...
Why is it important to ascertain... Dilligaf said...<br /><br /><b>Why is it important to ascertain how she got to the point in which she became a murderer? The only reason would be to attempt to diminish her crime so as to possibly qualify for parole at some point</b><br /><br />Well I beg to differ. I find it consistently fascinating that for you any attempt to <i>understand</i> equates to diminishing responsibility and trying by the back door to say "Well, she wasn't really so bad after all and what she did wasn't either. Many have done a lot worse."<br />I'm not saying that at all.<br />I come from a Christian perspective in which there is a tacit recognition that human beings are warped, entrenched in what the biblical writers posit as a sinful state, so I don't need to minimize the things that we do. I happen to also believe that people can come back from the worst of deeds ~ if they're allowed to. Many, possibly most in the criminal justice system won't or don't. But many is not all.<br />One of the important factors for me is the attitude and behaviour of the murderer in incarceration. It's important to at least look at how people may have reached the path they did, regardless, but if someone is penitent, even more so. People rarely emerge as murderers in a vacuum.<br />Besides which, when all is said and done, all of them have the possibility of parole as part of their sentence which makes it all the more important to try to determine if they've moved away from where they were at half a century ago.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-54773136413100204832017-05-15T00:07:43.851-04:002017-05-15T00:07:43.851-04:00Why is it important to ascertain how she got to th...Why is it important to ascertain how she got to the point in which she became a murderer? It is not like other girls attempted to copy her life and commit similar killings. The only reason would be to attempt to diminish her crime so as to possibly qualify for parole at some point. Just like there is no societal benefit to releasing her, there is no societal benefit to understand why she embraced criminal activity at an early age, or why she conspired to murder two people. Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-91057021922757126782017-05-13T17:56:07.163-04:002017-05-13T17:56:07.163-04:00Dilligaf said...
She is a murderer by choice, not... Dilligaf said...<br /><br /><b>She is a murderer by choice, not by influence....</b><br /><br />I'd never dispute that she chose to participate in murder but neither would I throw out her being influenced. Yes, she had been walking the lawless path before she met Charles Manson but there's a huge difference between what she did and killing someone.<br />There is often this underlying implication from those that share your view that anyone that attempts to look deeper into how she got to where she did is somehow trying to get her off the hook of responsibility or somehow imply that she's not totally to blame. I don't know how many times I have to state it ~ she's guilty of murder. But it is important to ascertain how she got there. She didn't just wake up one day a murderer having not been one the day before. And she was influenced by both Charlie and the group to the place where she was prepared to kill. Once she evinced a desire to go out and kill and even hope {as she told Marvin Part} that there would be more killings so she could take part, then she bears responsibility for her part in what went on to happen. <br />But she was influenced to that point by outside parties. It's not to say that she didn't have much to do with assessing the strands of that influence, she did. She had to. But that influence was there and I don't believe she would have engaged in murder had she not been in a group that moved increasingly in that direction. <br />That's why I say it's a paradox.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-38423827527009208232017-05-10T22:32:15.405-04:002017-05-10T22:32:15.405-04:00I was thinking about something today, and I think ...I was thinking about something today, and I think I'll make a thread tomorrow on it. <br /><br />There are so many questions about the Cielo Drive invasion, and also the Waverly Drive invasion. So many different accounts as to what happened, so many different opinions as to "why", etc.<br /><br />I have a question that has been bugging me for years, and I'll post about it tomorrow, if I have time. It has nothing to do with motive, it has to do with what happened, according to the killers, who are the only ones left to say what happened.<br /><br />I would do it tonight, but I'm so tired, I'm getting to bed. Maybe I'll start on it.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-47136116576910734942017-05-09T15:32:25.714-04:002017-05-09T15:32:25.714-04:00Leary,
I am not saying that perspective, free wil...Leary,<br /><br />I am not saying that perspective, free will, or anaytical ability to make decisions is not influenced by external environmental exposure, surely it is. What I am saying is that ultimately each person makes a decision regarding their actions, and it is their responsibility for whatever occurs.<br /><br />As far as Caril Fugate, I believe that she was every bit as culpable as Starkweather, and deserved the same punishment. Unfortunately, she benefited from a time in society that did not want to believe that a young girl could be involved in murder, so she was not handled in the manner she should have. We have seen many cases over the years, Menendez Brothers, Dana Ewell, Kevin Yocum, as well as other regional cases of parenticide.Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-70777855695915783612017-05-08T23:20:46.937-04:002017-05-08T23:20:46.937-04:00By the way Dill...my favorite all-time quote is Ca...By the way Dill...my favorite all-time quote is Carl Jung's comment that "the German people have a particular and peculiar susceptibility to mass psychosis."<br />Mass psychosis is a real thing. TLB is a case study in mass psychosis, just as Jonestown and Waco are. <br />Mass psychosis and "group think" are not compatible with free will.<br />Just sayin.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-67933617104758669642017-05-08T23:02:17.879-04:002017-05-08T23:02:17.879-04:00Here's the thing Dill. You clearly are seeing ...Here's the thing Dill. You clearly are seeing the issue of "free will" mostly through a legal eye. I respect that. But for me it is far more of a spiritual and psychological issue. Everyone is given free will. But one has to recognize that some people either willingly abdicate their free will (your perspective) or at other times have it taken away - often without their full realizing it.<br />Certainly Leslie exercised free will in her younger years and in her older years. But we are talking August 1969 ONLY.<br />Are you asserting that EVERYONE in the Family had total "free will" at that time? I seriously doubt any mental health professional would agree with that. And from my perspective there was a wide range among Family members in terms of "free will lost". Leslie is the only one I believe completely lost her free will, willingly or not. I think Pat was 85% 'free will gone' mostly because she was so eager to please and be accepted. Sadie on the other hand I would put at only 50% gone. She was mostly just naturally nasty.<br />Lynne and Sandy and Nancy and Gypsy I'd put in the 75% gone. Gypsy is on record as saying it took her a full decade to get Manson completely out of her head. And Squeaky was still defending the killings as "the right thing to do" well into the mid-80's.<br />Others like Kitty and Ella Jo and such would grade out as only 20-30% gone, as their defiance and actions proved.<br />Ruth Ann is a most interesting case. Based on her attempting to kill or at least seriously damage Hoyt as well as her telling Donkey Dan that she "couldn't wait to off her first pig" is a pretty fair indication that she was all the way in with Manson's vision. But was that really Ruth Ann. Can a 15 year old kid who has grown up weird really have control of her free will. Or are the influences in her life stronger than her ability to act on her own volition. It happens, we've all seen it.<br />You know what is an interesting case to discuss with regards to free will is the Caril Ann Fugate case where she went on that murder spree with her boyfriend Starkweather. It was done as the movie Badlands with Martin Sheen. That case got serious publicity at the time just as the Manson did later. Starkweather of course got the chair. Caril Ann was seen as to young and "influenced" to get the death penalty though she was found guilty. Though her crimes were every bit as heinous as TLB, Fugate was paroled after 17 years. Even Vince thought Leslie would serve just about that long.<br />From a legal perspective Dill, "free will" can be interpreted in black and white terms. It is just not the same from a spiritual or mental health perspective.<br />leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-65425069883750956392017-05-08T20:16:37.038-04:002017-05-08T20:16:37.038-04:00Let's hope Dill!Let's hope Dill!katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-18385636341021146872017-05-08T18:36:04.434-04:002017-05-08T18:36:04.434-04:00It is possible, but hopefully the 115's that B...It is possible, but hopefully the 115's that Bob has received will be sufficient to trip him up. Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-32518000561332504902017-05-08T17:30:52.515-04:002017-05-08T17:30:52.515-04:00Thanks Dill. I think the lawyer that Leslie has i...Thanks Dill. I think the lawyer that Leslie has is the best one she's ever had. He might just get her out. <br /><br />I would think that Pat & Bobby would be eligible for that hearing as well. They were younger than 23 at the time.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-53846436064578642122017-05-08T16:15:22.513-04:002017-05-08T16:15:22.513-04:00With an ever-changing legal landscape, California ...With an ever-changing legal landscape, California will see more and more of these types of claims, and challenges. As California leaders continue to soften the punishment for crimes, society is faced with real possibilities that could see murderers who rightfully belong in prison released long before their time. This is evidenced by the changes made by the California Legislature which further expanded the laws regarding punishment for youthful offenders to include those in their young twenties. From a legal perspective, requesting a Franklin hearing is a smart move, given the current beliefs that everyone is a victim...Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-74988268717999543502017-05-08T12:38:19.322-04:002017-05-08T12:38:19.322-04:00Here's an interesting article on Cielodrive.co...Here's an interesting article on Cielodrive.com:<br /><br />http://www.cielodrive.com/updates/superior-court-judge-considers-granting-van-houten-hearing/katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-18285043379193576712017-05-08T00:20:13.858-04:002017-05-08T00:20:13.858-04:00Leary, LVH chose to participate in certain "...Leary, LVH chose to participate in certain "behaviors" long before she met up with the Wooly Hophead, or Bobby. Such activities were pre-cursors to later behavior with the Family, so the influences were re-inforcing previously made choices at best. The fact that it escalated later into murder, again was by choice. The fact that she was disappointed that she was not able to join in the killings the IRS night, but wanted to join in the second night further demonstrates free will and her ability to decide. A bastardized version of the Nuremberg defense still does not alleviate the fact that she whose to become who she was, and is, a murderer. Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-51055410215084925782017-05-07T21:30:35.005-04:002017-05-07T21:30:35.005-04:00For the record, I have always been a firm believer...For the record, I have always been a firm believer that Leslie's free will, as it were, was not just 90% gone but 100% usurped at the time of the murders. This is not to say I think she should have been found not guilty or served time, she most certainly deserved to. But I do believe her 'lack of free will' contention cannot be so easily dismissed. Unfortunately for her the heinous nature of the crime sentenced her forever to the "you get no slack from us" corner. I do believe Katie is queen of that corner, God bless her.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-90232550096810451542017-05-07T21:15:33.476-04:002017-05-07T21:15:33.476-04:00Pure semantics, Dill. Most would argue her choice ...Pure semantics, Dill. Most would argue her choice was influenced. She also "chose" to participate in sex acts, cut ties with her family, and commit numerous other crimes. It is almost a chicken and egg question...she chose to be part of the family but certainly not just Charlie but family peer pressure as well influenced her subsequent decisions.<br />Did the men at My Lai choose to machine guy women and babies in the ditches or were the influenced by the horrors of war the sufferings of their comrades. Some chose not to participate and some even tried to stop the massacre...but many who did participate argued they had no choice. Mind control is a tricky thing...it is short sighted to automatically jump to the "choice" argument. Especially if you never have had your own free will taken away by someone or circumstances.<br />Charlie's genius, as it were, was in convincing about twenty drugged out idiots that they were in fact at war. It is not hard to do. Jim Jones did it too. Koresch also. It's actually been done countless times throughout history. If it hadn't happened in Hollywood with a movie star victim and at the apex of the hippie movement would we still be arguing over Leslie's free will?leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-54454207508834965512017-05-07T16:55:16.547-04:002017-05-07T16:55:16.547-04:00She is a murderer by choice, not by influence....She is a murderer by choice, not by influence....Dilligafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052411066646010067noreply@blogger.com