tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post3310415014066784592..comments2024-03-19T21:34:44.985-04:00Comments on The Tate-LaBianca Homicide Research Blog: Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger126125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-25851441230763415562011-12-25T08:16:25.418-05:002011-12-25T08:16:25.418-05:00I think there is more to Shorty's death than t...I think there is more to Shorty's death than the 'snitch' business. It was supposed to be Frank Retz who was trying to get them off the ranch, plus shorty got in the car with his killers: therefore the we-are-going-to get-him-for-snitching stuff looks suspect already.<br /><br /><br />The thing is, that in Helter Skelter, Bugliosi made the Family, and Spahn Ranch appear to be a compact and fairly small affair. Yet it was sprawling and disorganized, with people coming and going all the time, not a highly organized cult with a leader making plans. Things happened, they happened as reactions to other things, and no-one saw a whole picture because there wasn't one.<br /><br />No-one knows who really knew who, but there are many rumours. One is that Shorty was seen with Rosemary Labianca, who was also reputed to be dealing LSD. That is not so wild: her dress shop seems to have made a suspiciously large amount of money. Rosemary was curiously terrified by the Tate murders, really disturbed.<br /><br />Were all these people connected and got on the wrong side of someone? Voytek, bringing in MDA, thinking to make a quick buck before Abigail dumped him? Possibly in partnership with Jay, whose business wasn't going well? Dealing it through Rosemary and her boutique dress shop: it's a good cover for the Beautiful People to drop in and buy a frock and also 'something for the weekend'. Maybe delivered or even purchased by Shorty, who was always going on these trips in quest to be a star.<br /><br />No-one can ever know because drug activity is secret and when carried out by the outwardly respectable, it's double secret. Sharon and her friends were, to the public eye, respectable: no real tabloids then, secrets were mainly kept. It is entirely possible and not far-fetched at all that Shorty knew Rosemary and knew who had killed her and why. Perhaps the snitching he died for was the possibility he would testify to something that would completely incriminate Manson. It seems amazingly unlikely that the guy would have been slaughtered by three or four people just for telling a blind man to run them off the property. If that were the case, a little scare would have been enough, surely?<br /><br />The standard explanation has to be rubbish. <br /><br />And as for why Clem and the others would have done this, they give their explanations in everything they said: "Never ask why. Live in the Now" etc. They really believed this stuff. they were really living it.fiona1933https://www.blogger.com/profile/00041216158548547908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-65846766669732830542011-12-17T20:33:20.097-05:002011-12-17T20:33:20.097-05:00>>>Beauders said: i think manson is goin...>>>Beauders said: i think manson is going to do just about anything he can to outlive bugliosi. he would see that as winning their little war.>>><br /><br />Beauders you're probably right on the money! Who can live longer? LOL.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-78580259435787257312011-12-17T00:27:34.339-05:002011-12-17T00:27:34.339-05:00i think manson is going to do just about anything ...i think manson is going to do just about anything he can to outlive bugliosi. he would see that as winning their little war.beaudershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14223387983663922713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-90205547927615369532011-12-16T17:28:11.885-05:002011-12-16T17:28:11.885-05:00I doubt if Charlie's half sister wants his car...I doubt if Charlie's half sister wants his carcass. Or anyone else with any brains for that matter.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-17769369785619252882011-12-16T13:24:45.348-05:002011-12-16T13:24:45.348-05:00which raises the question, Marliese, about the rig...which raises the question, Marliese, about the rights of blood relatives. Maybe Dilligaf could answer that one. We know Charlies has a half sister thought she has never surfaced. The question about Charlie's kids goes round and round. My guess is that Manson being a control freak he has made some arrangements with either Star or Lynn. I'd be shocked if he just left it all to "blowin in the wind". He's to much of a performer for that.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-50184855957881452872011-12-16T13:01:00.999-05:002011-12-16T13:01:00.999-05:00When Charlie is pronounced dead...in prison, any g...When Charlie is pronounced dead...in prison, any guesses who will step up and claim his dead body? Can just anyone, or would they have to prove they're legally entitled to receive his remains?Marliesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920353129039798997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-33857372142678632002011-12-16T11:16:29.248-05:002011-12-16T11:16:29.248-05:00a couple of years ago I seem to recall that German...a couple of years ago I seem to recall that Germany had to move Rudolph Hess's grave to an undisclosed location because it had become a shrine for neo-Nazis.<br /><br />Which raises the question if Charlie's grave would become such a place, a destination for his fans. I kinda envisioned Squeeky buying a big plot in some old graveyard out in Death Valley and welcoming any old Family member to finally rest there. Who would join Charlie out in the dessert one last time? Lynn and Sandy and Cappy probably, the others not so sure.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-37162867592958779352011-12-15T14:00:24.758-05:002011-12-15T14:00:24.758-05:00>>>Leary said: And I still wonder if the...>>>Leary said: And I still wonder if the Bug would show up. He always loved the camera. I could see him showing.>>><br /><br />Yeah Leary, Bugliosi probably would show up. To have the last laugh. LOL.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-86294728450705004072011-12-15T13:40:02.745-05:002011-12-15T13:40:02.745-05:00>>>Mr P said: Clem was a ranchhand along...>>>Mr P said: Clem was a ranchhand along with Shorty at Spaghs before Charlie ever arrived. Yet Clem joined the Family and then helped murder Shorty. So much for old times sake huh?>>><br /><br />Yeah, he was a great friend....NOT!!<br /><br />Not only is Clem a murderer, he's a child molester. He should be a registered sex offender. <br /><br />Too bad if his little "rock band" didn't work out. Screw him.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-45078842729123528202011-12-15T13:34:16.330-05:002011-12-15T13:34:16.330-05:00leary7 said...>>>>
I am totally with M...leary7 said...>>>><br />I am totally with Marliese - and I know Saint feels strongly on this too - that it is a total abomination that Grogan has walked around a free man the past several decades.<<<<<<br /><br /><br />It is, Leary...it totally is...an abomination. <br />Am I remembering the news reports correctly...he was only 33 years old when he was released? Luck. He's damn lucky the make up and inclination of the parole boards were what they were at that time...focused on so called rehabiliation I suppose, not punishment for brutal crimes against human life. When Clem was released, I'll bet they all thought they had a chance.<br /><br />And what does revealing where Shorty was buried have to do with fitness for release? So he could prove he didn't cut off Shorty's head? What a guy. How about what he did do...let the man's remains rot for years and lied about it...how moral of him to desecrate the remains of the man he ambushed, bludgeoned and stabbed to death. <br /><br />And he complains about being outed for who and what he is now...he really has no basis for any complaint whatsoever, he's a convicted murderer is what he is and he should thank his lucky stars he's been a free man for the past 25 years.Marliesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920353129039798997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-12545241801111565782011-12-15T12:54:15.637-05:002011-12-15T12:54:15.637-05:00Ah, Bob, you're one of the good guys ~ you are...Ah, Bob, you're one of the good guys ~ you are...really. When your name appears in the comments, i always think oh good Bob's here...you're genuine and real. If there were 'like' buttons here, i'd sure be hitting them for every one of your comments. <br />Thanks much. <br /><br />Happy Christmas to you and yours...Marliesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920353129039798997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-3852533138381285912011-12-15T11:21:49.324-05:002011-12-15T11:21:49.324-05:00I am totally with Marliese - and I know Saint feel...I am totally with Marliese - and I know Saint feels strongly on this too - that it is a total abomination that Grogan has walked around a free man the past several decades.<br />They say he got parole because he lead them to Shorty's body and also the judge felt he was to stupid to be a dangerous criminal...but I have always felt the Shea murder was regarded as a "lesser crime" because he was just a ranchhand and not a movie star or celebrity hairdresser or heiress or even a grocery big shot. Shorty got shafted.<br />I know we live in a celebrity culture but it is just flat out disgusting how much notoriety influences the judicial system.<br /><br />Do you think any of the old guys would attend Charlie's funeral? Chuck Lovett or Brooks? Would Donkey Dan make scene? TJ would have for sure. And I still wonder if the Bug would show up. He always loved the camera. I could see him showing.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-85347981312987905022011-12-14T22:11:38.989-05:002011-12-14T22:11:38.989-05:00Clem was a ranchhand along with Shorty at Spaghs b...Clem was a ranchhand along with Shorty at Spaghs before Charlie ever arrived. Yet Clem joined the Family and then helped murder Shorty. So much for old times sake huh?MrPoirothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06155552886069024565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-36560778192139285162011-12-14T21:28:48.053-05:002011-12-14T21:28:48.053-05:00Of course, Clem went from "we got five piggie...Of course, Clem went from "we got five piggies last night" and "I cut his head off" to (after being in prison for a few years) "was that wrong"? "Maybe I shouldn't have done that".<br /><br />It's funny how prison isn't funny. It kind of takes the wind out of your sails. <br /><br />After being in prison for a few years and Charlie didn't resurrect anybody and free anybody, I guess Clem figured he'd been taken for a fool.<br /><br />"Well I guess I'll tell you where we buried him if you'll let me out."<br /><br />Ahhhhh, Clem....it looks like YOU'RE the snitch. HA HA.<br /><br />Don't be mad if someone "snitched" on you. LOL.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-59939219121511610652011-12-14T20:14:11.302-05:002011-12-14T20:14:11.302-05:00>>>sbuch said: It's the Son Of Sam l...>>>sbuch said: It's the Son Of Sam law that prevents the convicted from profiting from thier misdeeds.>>><br /><br />Thanks sbuch! If you'll read back a bit, Mr. Dill explained that law and that it's been overruled in most every state. I didn't know that. Thanks for your input!!katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-39863954137188221572011-12-14T20:11:34.151-05:002011-12-14T20:11:34.151-05:00>>>Mr. P said: I doubt if Shorty's w...>>>Mr. P said: I doubt if Shorty's wife had any bearing on his death because that marriage was over. there was minimal contact between Shorty and his wife by summer 69.>>><br /><br />I didn't know that. I do know that Charlie didn't like his marriage. He thought it was "unmanly" of him to marry into another race.<br /><br />>>>If Shorty truly feared for his life would he have gotten in that car with three Family members?>>><br /><br />Ruby Pearl says that Shorty confided to her that he was afraid of them. He was staying elsewhere at night instead of bunking at the ranch.<br /><br />According to Clem (if I'm remembering this right) there were only 2 family members in the car with Shorty...Clem & Tex. Tex told Shorty to drive off the road a bit with some pretext then signaled Clem to hit him on the head with a tire iron. Tex dragged Shorty out of the car, and then Charlie and Bruce showed up in another vehicle and Charlie ordered everyone to stab him.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-65387246033870806562011-12-14T19:57:51.716-05:002011-12-14T19:57:51.716-05:00katie8753 said...
Mr. P, wasn't Charlie mad at...katie8753 said...<br />Mr. P, wasn't Charlie mad at Shorty because he married a black girl? I think there was more to this hatred of Shorty than just the alleged "snitching".<br /><br />I think Shorty & Charlie just rubbed each other the wrong way on a daily basis. At the end of his life, Shorty was afraid of staying at the ranch. It's too bad he didn't trust his own intuition<br /><br />Mr Poirot replies:<br /><br />If Shorty truly feared for his life would he have gotten in that car with three Family members? I have to wonder if Shorty didn't completely underestimate the leathality of the Family. Current wisdom says they tricked Shorty into the car to go get car partd. But the most likely trick they used was telling Shorty his horse was loose. Any cowboy will fall for that trick every time.<br /><br />I doubt if Shorty's wife had any bearing on his death because that marriage was over. there was minimal contact between Shorty and his wife by summer 69.MrPoirothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06155552886069024565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-81118440353439957972011-12-14T19:36:24.302-05:002011-12-14T19:36:24.302-05:00It's the Son Of Sam law that prevents the conv...It's the Son Of Sam law that prevents the convicted from profiting from thier misdeeds.sbuch113https://www.blogger.com/profile/01794368422535955408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-4499552091613976492011-12-14T18:50:16.492-05:002011-12-14T18:50:16.492-05:00Hi Bobby!!
I love it when Marliese AND you commen...Hi Bobby!!<br /><br />I love it when Marliese AND you comment. Always interesting stuff and right on the money!!! :)katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-66278310921065722192011-12-14T18:08:05.262-05:002011-12-14T18:08:05.262-05:00>>>Marliese said: He's a convicted m...>>>Marliese said: He's a convicted murderer. His background is subject to the same scrutiny as any other convicted felon.>>><br /><br />That's right Marliese.<br /><br />Look at Casey Anthony. She's so hated that she has to hide, and if someone outed her, there wouldn't be anything she could do about it legally, she would just have to dig out another hiding place. And she's not even a convicted felon, although she should be.<br /><br />I've always said (agreeing with the Col) that Clem didn't have a leg to stand on with that threat of a lawsuit anyway. It's not against the law to report news.<br /><br />Mr. Dill.... do you concur??? :)katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-373522510494184412011-12-14T17:51:18.482-05:002011-12-14T17:51:18.482-05:00Katie said>>>Yes indeedy. He's got mo...Katie said>>>Yes indeedy. He's got more of a life than he deserves, that's for sure<<<<<<br /><br /><br />That is for sure, and exactly why it's screwed up that he dares complain about someone revealing who he is now. He's a convicted murderer. His background is subject to the same scrutiny as any other convicted felon.Marliesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920353129039798997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-47425861818903687992011-12-14T17:36:18.811-05:002011-12-14T17:36:18.811-05:00Hi Bing!
Yes Susan & Charlie were convicted o...Hi Bing!<br /><br />Yes Susan & Charlie were convicted of the Labianca murders, even though they weren't involved in the actual killing, so why wasn't Clem charged and convicted as well?<br /><br />Marliese mentioned that Bugliosi explains it in Helter Skelter. I'll have to look that up and get back with you.<br /><br />>>>He is One Lucky Muthafucka>>><br /><br />Yes indeedy. He's got more of a life than he deserves, that's for sure.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-53439698748227544382011-12-14T17:09:57.870-05:002011-12-14T17:09:57.870-05:00katie8753 said...
I've always wondered why Cle...katie8753 said...<br />I've always wondered why Clem wasn't prosecuted for LaBianca. He was in the "look for murder car" just as much as Susan & Charlie.....<br /><br />What I find strange about that whole thing was that Susan was charged and convicted on the LaBianca murders while Clem wasn't even though I seem to recall the Bug saying in "Helter Skelter" that "Clem Tufts" was even named in the search Warrant that was place on the bus during the Search at Barker Ranch by Bugliosi and the Inyo Co. Sheriff's office......He is One Lucky MuthafuckaBinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027663850999601882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-88533797944463579122011-12-14T16:32:15.363-05:002011-12-14T16:32:15.363-05:00I made a new thread, for that discussion Carol.
Th...I made a new thread, for that discussion Carol.<br />Thanks!LynyrdSkynyrdBandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04603696815079837528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-18481031130906654502011-12-14T16:26:49.435-05:002011-12-14T16:26:49.435-05:00Mr. P, wasn't Charlie mad at Shorty because he...Mr. P, wasn't Charlie mad at Shorty because he married a black girl? I think there was more to this hatred of Shorty than just the alleged "snitching".<br /><br />I think Shorty & Charlie just rubbed each other the wrong way on a daily basis. At the end of his life, Shorty was afraid of staying at the ranch. It's too bad he didn't trust his own intuition.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.com