tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post2404718888808173396..comments2024-03-19T21:34:44.985-04:00Comments on The Tate-LaBianca Homicide Research Blog: Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-42263045696562842812017-05-07T18:02:46.447-04:002017-05-07T18:02:46.447-04:00Reza R said...
if she flipped I wouldn't want... Reza R said...<br /><br /><b>if she flipped I wouldn't want to be her creepy crawled way of getting sent back</b><br /><br />There's not many 67+ year old women that would sneak into your house in the dead of night and kill you.<br />Unless you care to enlighten us otherwise.<br /><br /><b>I dont see a remorseful, rehabilitated person. I see a con manipulating the system</b><br /><br />You see pretty much what you choose to see. She's still in jail ! How can she be manipulating the system ? The system says she's eligible for parole, not her. She has no control over it.<br /><br /><br /><br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-17086943963506300642016-05-17T21:06:46.426-04:002016-05-17T21:06:46.426-04:00REZA!!! Well spoken!!! Thanks for your comment!!!...REZA!!! Well spoken!!! Thanks for your comment!!! :)katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-81120177725246698872016-05-15T06:02:02.027-04:002016-05-15T06:02:02.027-04:00Here is my one (possibly only) comment to this sit...Here is my one (possibly only) comment to this site on this subject. For what it is or isn't worth.<br /><br />The law states a person is to be released if they have met all requirements and they are no longer a danger to society. <br /><br />Prison psychiatrists are overburdened and I will always question any report from them. Lets face it, they dont go into the depths someone in private practice would. Take Dr. Loveys report for example:<br /><br />http://primal-page.com/dpjloveys.htm<br /><br />This doctor reads like fresh out of school and recommended her parole, after telling her it was her mothers fault. And that whole part about Leslie being visited by Rosemary LaBianca spirit has got fire engine screaming red flags all over it. But, that isn't my point here. <br /><br />LVH has downplayed her role, changed her story and in the latest parole hearing has turned herself into a victim of: A. mommy B. Manson C.high school boyfriend D. pot E. an abortion at 15, no 16, no lets make that 17. F. Tex and/or Pat and Share.<br /><br />It's the whole, Im wrestling someone who is being or has been stabbed but I didn't have one drop of blood on me---I dont know who took the milk.. Tex did it! ---- I wiped down the bedroom only (2016 version) ---- 6' Tex took my 5'5" pants and told me take Rosemarys, I turned my back and couldnt watch but Tex stabbed her in the back, while I wasnt watching and couldnt see. <br /><br />She's not telling the truth so how can she be remorseful? And if she's not remorseful she can't be rehabilitated and remains a threat to society. <br /><br />If she were to just say, 'I was a problem child, was attracted to the bad boys of society, got in way over what I could handle, I stole, robbed people in their homes while they slept, knew they were killing people, kept quiet.. I hacked up this couple and I am guilty as shit.' <br />And if she actually understood the impact of what she did, I would be more inclined to say that has served her time and should be given a chance to live next door to anyone but me. .. I say that because she is going to attract a lot media and lunatics. I also say that because she is totally institutionalized and if she flipped I wouldn't want to be her creepy crawled way of getting sent back.<br /><br />So that's my opinion on it. I dont see a remorseful, rehabilitated person. I see a con manipulating the system.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05199251669551347747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-15598640021256523002016-05-14T14:03:04.455-04:002016-05-14T14:03:04.455-04:00maudes harold said...
My quoting you specifically...maudes harold said...<br /><br /><b>My quoting you specifically was in response to the loss to victims of a brutal crime/occurrence. While we can discuss that some perpetrators had been victimized, leading to the Victims into Victimizer/Non-Victimizer discussion (fascinating topic in its own right and a fav of mine), that’s not what I was referring to</b><br /><br />I understand that. I did kind of go off on one there as I was thinking in a general way about how any person could relate in a quantifiable way the impact of someone else's particular actions on their past and present life.<br /><br /><b>I’ve bolded what seem to me to be contradicting statements</b><br /><br />The "I wasn't asking for proof of loss" part was in response to you saying: "Your words,'in a directly debilitating way' seemed to ask for proof of Loss, and it’s a bit unnerving. How does one prove they’ve been directly debilitated ?" ~ I wouldn't dispute that someone felt a loss unless they said they didn't. The bit about quantifying and articulating, I don't see as a contradiction. Just that if you are going to say something has affected you <i>and it has an impact on someone else</i> {in this case, someone's parole} I think you need to show how, even if only verbally. Because sooner or later, there is a risk that we reach a time when it becomes only words. I suspect that if we're not at that point now, we soon will be. <br />For me, quantifying is showing how much something has affected you.<br /><br /><b>Is her present behavior proof of her directly debilitating pain? Almost 50 years later? I don’t know.</b><br /><br />One could argue that much of Debra's pain stems from things that happened within her family. That said, I've deliberately steered clear of getting involved in the Debbie Tate sagas because for me, she's not an interesting part of TLB.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-8541809223652865672016-05-12T22:40:00.483-04:002016-05-12T22:40:00.483-04:00It's amazing to me how someone can think they ...It's amazing to me how someone can think they can just enter your life and take your very soul, then think they can get away with it.<br /><br />Amazing...katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-26998029908121222722016-05-12T22:33:37.797-04:002016-05-12T22:33:37.797-04:00There are just some things you never get over, you...There are just some things you never get over, you never forget, you never forgive, you never solve and you never stop asking WHY?katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-41791980357477627952016-05-12T22:07:35.889-04:002016-05-12T22:07:35.889-04:00Now, you brought up, Debra Tate, who has become a ...Now, you brought up, Debra Tate, who has become a somewhat polarizing figure in this case. <br /><br />Watching her now (past 5-10 years) I had been hard on her in my heart and head. It felt like she was wearing a Victim Badge. It especially didn’t help that she changed her stories about all sorts of stuff, repeatedly, and it seemed like she aggrandized her roles, always to be center in the story. It is irritating.<br /><br />Having learned more about her experiences in the past, how her family responded immediately and over time, I can understand her better. Connecting seemingly measurable dots. Having to be a mom to Patti when Doris checked out for 10 years, losing her “family”, all sorts of stuff obviously impacted her. I’ve come to have a softer heart towards her cuz I can better see her experiences. Not only was her sister brutally murdered and robbed from her, it shattered her family as she knew it. Massive impact. Especially as a teen.<br /><br />Is her present behavior proof of her directly debilitating pain? Almost 50 years later? I don’t know.<br /><br />She’s still irritating to my brain.<br /><br /><b>That's partly why I'm curious as to whether most of the victim's families have just moved on with their lives, dealt with the fallout in whichever ways they saw fit and really would like to go back to being what they were even after the trials.....anonymous</b><br /><br />It certainly looks like most of the families stayed relatively anonymous (despite us TLBers), and maybe those that have spoken up more recently have done so after seeing what the damage did do to their families over 40+ years.<br /><br /> Maybe they didn’t get involved cuz Doris did. Patti wasn’t involved until Doris couldn’t be. Debra wasn’t involved until Patti couldn’t be. Sometimes you step up to fill a hole and sometimes you don’t have to cuz someone else already did. And sometimes you just jump over the hole.<br /><br />As far as Leslie’s parole:<br /><br />If Leslie murdered my family member I would never want her out of jail, ever.<br /><br />Legally, she has a right to consideration of parole. Has she met those conditions? That will be raged over til the cows come home, in TLBlandia at least, despite the official legal outcome. I do not think she is a present risk or would be to others if released.<br /> <br />In the REAL world of California politics, reality and agendas, I would rather her space be used to keep a violent high risk offender locked up. <br /><br /><b>If justice is done in the eyes of the law but one feels that justice has not been done, then has justice been done ?</b><br /><br />I don’t think there is ever real justice felt by anyone when a loved one is murdered.maudes haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08310246530830761390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-89216625481626951722016-05-12T21:58:26.483-04:002016-05-12T21:58:26.483-04:00Grim,
My quoting you specifically was in response...Grim,<br /><br />My quoting you specifically was in response to the loss to victims of a brutal crime/occurrence. While we can discuss that some perpetrators had been victimized, leading to the Victims into Victimizer/Non-Victimizer discussion (fascinating topic in its own right and a fav of mine), that’s not what I was referring to. <br /><br /><i> <b>I wasn't asking for proof of loss</b> but neither do I assume that someone who might have been 7 at the time a grand parent was killed {whether by murder, accident, in war, by illness etc} would, half a century later, have that direct feeling of pain that one might have a lot closer to the time. I stressed in an earlier post that I was not saying that none would.</i><br /> <br />My roommate’s sister was in a cult that cut off all communication from her family, decades after her ancestors were murdered. Like a de facto concentration camp, if you will. Is it a generational impact? I’m not asking you to specifically answer these questions Grim, just throwing them out there. As a teacher, I asked far more questions than I ever answered. It’s a left-over habit!:)<br /><br /><br /><i>Also, if someone is going to say "this person should never get out of jail because of the trauma, pain and devastation they caused me and my family" and they are claiming that the trauma, pain and devastation has carried on for half a century, <b>I feel they should have to quantify and articulate that.</b> Not how it was back then {most of us would be able to empathize with that}, but how it is now because it is always the now that we are in. Otherwise, where does one ever draw a line ?</i><br /><br />I’ve bolded what seem to me to be contradicting statements, join the club-we’re full of em. Lol<br /><br /> I’d be curious to see what the 2nd bolded comment looks like. Especially the ‘quantify’, cuz I can see how you can articulate/qualify an impact, but quantify is more difficult for me to wrap my Emily Latella brain around. How do you quantify the potential of what could have been?<br /><br /><br /><i>The number of people that have therapists, counsellors or undergo certain strands of psychiatric treatment indicates, at least to me, that joining the dots from where something began to where it currently is in that person's particular life is a fairly common event.</i><br /><br />I agree, tho it can be/is done without those means/tools as well. It is a directly measurable and visible way of assessing loss, but not a wholly true measurement, more to give voice to it.<br /><br /><br /><i>But even Charles Manson {if you think of the Nuel Emmons or George Stimson books on him} makes connections between early life events, teenage life events and adult behaviour. His entire Family shctick of separating the children from their Mums and the Dads not being important and why, shows this.</i><br /><br />Charlie preached those connections, as well as used them for his own justifications, from day one, still does. I think he was a better study of Dot-Connecting in people than many.<br />Separating people wasn’t so much a schtick as a tool, and Charlie knew that.maudes haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08310246530830761390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-87389781783008639262016-05-12T13:15:59.231-04:002016-05-12T13:15:59.231-04:00maudes harold said...
loss is loss. And it can im... maudes harold said...<br /><br /><b>loss is loss. And it can impact generations</b><br /><br />That was a deep story Maudes. The first thing that stood out to me was that both of your friend's parents were in the concentration camps. Even a glance at a few stories about that period brings a remarkable spectrum of responses to it, some just grateful to be alive that they live life to the full, some having had the spark extinguished and never truly able to enjoy life, some feeling guilty that they survived while so many didn't.....<br />I wouldn't minimize the feelings of loss of either of your friend's parents. What would be of interest to me though, to give things a TLB spin, would be to know what their feelings towards their captors would be 40, 50, 60 years later, especially if they heard that they were going to be released.<br />This strand of the conversation sort of began when I was replying to points regarding the victims' families coming to these hearings and constantly saying the same thing. I don't know how it works but me, being me, I do wonder at times the true extent to the depth of feeling, especially if Debra Tate acts as the victim rep. Why really would the LaBianca, Hinman and Shea families need that ? It could look as though Debbie makes the running which then begs the question that if she was not in the picture, would the family members be ? Rarely does one hear of a Parent family member being there. No family member from the Hinman's have been at any of Bobby Beausoleil's last 4 hearings {I don't know about before but none were there in '78}. Bruce Davis has had 6 hearings since 2007. Only in 2014 & 15 did a Hinman cousin appear. No Shea family in sight. That's partly why I'm curious as to whether most of the victim's families have just moved on with their lives, dealt with the fallout in whichever ways they saw fit and really would like to go back to being what they were even after the trials.....anonymous. When the parole hearings first began, they didn't get involved. Steven Kay {according to Ed Sanders} claims that he was the one that first flagged up Doris Tate to get involved in parole hearings.<br />Asking the questions doesn't equate to falling on any particular side, but I will not assume, in the absence of knowing.<br />Harrowing loss can definitely impact generations. But does that give the succeeding generations the freedom to live in that ad infinitum ? At what point can it ever end ? If justice is done in the eyes of the law but one feels that justice has not been done, then has justice been done ?grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-50263453055727532372016-05-12T12:23:23.622-04:002016-05-12T12:23:23.622-04:00maudes harold said...
It’s a coloring of a life, ...<br /> maudes harold said...<br /><br /><b>It’s a coloring of a life, or a sad staining of reality that leaves an invisible mark, unseen by most. It cannot easily be measurable and often difficult to put into words. It can reveal itself to others through problematic behaviors, but the pain of loss is uniquely felt by that individual</b><br /><br />I agree with all of that. That such effects can't be <i>easily</i> measurable and put into words can be ever so true. I would say the same thing about feelings and ressponses on many things. <br />It's interesting, in schools today, if a child shows any kind of behaviour that makes adults uncomfortable, straight away people wonder if the child has been or is being abused or is party to or has knowledge of another child being abused. Most of the time, they aren't. But we look at behaviour and attach meaning to it and as a result, sometimes can say "this action led to be being depressed or getting into <i>that relationship</i> or whatever. It's not about blame, it's about association. And as you point out, each person reacts to things differently.<br /><br /><b>It is real and should never need to justify itself. Your words,”… in a directly debilitating way” seemed to ask for proof of Loss, and it’s a bit unnerving. How does one prove they’ve been directly debilitated?</b><br /><br />That's a hard one and is packed with nuances. I wasn't asking for proof of loss but neither do I assume that someone who might have been 7 at the time a grand parent was killed {whether by murder, accident, in war, by illness etc} would, half a century later, have that direct feeling of pain that one might have a lot closer to the time. I stressed in an earlier post that I was not saying that none would.<br />Pat Krenwinkel, LVH and Bruce Davis could tell you how they'd been directly debilitated by being raped, having divorced parents, being forced to have an abortion, feeling ugly, fat and unloved....True, none of that proves anything but if that is the case all human beings may as well never utter another word because anyone can cast doubt on what someone else sees as a truth.<br />Also, if someone is going to say "this person should never get out of jail because of the trauma, pain and devastation they caused me and my family" and they are claiming that the trauma, pain and devastation has carried on for half a century, I feel they <i>should</i> have to quantify and articulate that. Not how it was back then {most of us would be able to empathize with that}, but how it is now because it is always the now that we are in. Otherwise, where does one ever draw a line ?<br />There are certain things that have happened to me during my life, starting with when I was a kid and I can tell you precisely how they've affected me. I don't hold things against the peoples concerned and I've moved away from those things but I remember them well. It's not a case of saying "oh, what a good boy am I !" like little Jack Horner, more a case of knowing how I responded to things. Sometimes I managed to turn a - into a +. Sometimes I didn't {and sometimes, I turned a + into a -! }grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-82160328333802285042016-05-12T11:36:14.507-04:002016-05-12T11:36:14.507-04:00maudes harold said...
But there’s the rub. Loss, ... maudes harold said...<br /><br /><b>But there’s the rub. Loss, especially under these circumstances, is never truly measurable in a directly visible way</b><br /><br />I wouldn't say "never." I think sometimes it can be directly measurable. We're, I think, a lot better at connecting our dots over the last 40 or so years than in the "shrug everything off, carry on regardless, stiff upper lip" days when much behaviour appeared to be inexplicable simply because what a person was going through wasn't known or talked about. Many more people are likely to trace certain paths and actions back to their genesis and nascent stages. Ironically, that's what many prisoners do during parole hearings. The board members ask questions that in a way force some cons to confront things they may never have really confronted before. I'd say, even more ironically, that many past board members have unwittingly {or perhaps a better word would be unthinkingly} done, certainly the TLB killers, a favour with nearly 40 years of constant parole rejections. They've constantly said things like "not enough insight shown into past actions and it's effects" which has really caused that crowd to know assuredly that you don't take human life deliberately and have any intention of rejoining society without such a thorough overhaul of being which partly entails <i>knowing</i>, not just "being aware" of how society views your actions, but also recognizing all the kinks, all the little points where the wrong attitudes had a chance to gain a foothold because the chance cannot be taken of them ever getting there again. And as an added caveat, there is a more than good possibility that they'll never be paroled.<br />With that in mind, some prisoners can pinpoint almost exactly how they were affected by certain happenings and where those happenings led. <br />And it's not only prisoners. The number of people that have therapists, counsellors or undergo certain strands of psychiatric treatment indicates, at least to me, that joining the dots from where something began to where it currently is in that person's particular life is a fairly common event.<br />I don't deny that some just do a con job and I don't dispute that many don't bother. But even Charles Manson {if you think of the Nuel Emmons or George Stimson books on him} makes connections between early life events, teenage life events and adult behaviour. His entire Family <i>shctick</i> of separating the children from their Mums and the Dads not being important and why, shows this. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-88123382575229493112016-05-11T19:04:58.503-04:002016-05-11T19:04:58.503-04:00Great stories, Maude. Thanks for sharing.Great stories, Maude. Thanks for sharing.Venushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510083489728391657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-13190143375437953632016-05-10T22:38:42.837-04:002016-05-10T22:38:42.837-04:00Loss gets easier over time, but some losses, espec...<b>Loss gets easier over time, but some losses, especially the theft of a loved one through someone else's brutal actions, has to leave scars that are not measurable.</b><br /><br />Truer words were never spoken Maude. Thanks so much for your input.<br /><br />I'm sorry for the loss of your mother. I know how that feels. It's a sweet agony that never seems to go away.<br /><br />God Bless you....katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-91729203729520941682016-05-10T20:41:12.863-04:002016-05-10T20:41:12.863-04:00I think the comparison can come when discussing lo...I think the comparison can come when discussing loss and it's impact. And we have all suffered loss, maybe not through brutal circumstances, but loss nevertheless. I know my roommates parents are not exactly what Grim was referring to, but loss is loss. And it can impact generations.<br /><br />I lost my mother to cancer almost 25 years ago. The pain can still come, most often when I am with the next generation that never got to meet and know her. I will feel my loss of not being able to watch the expression on my mother's face when one of my nieces or nephew does something funny, or loving or mischievous-all things she would have loved. I feel the loss of seeing her delighting in that. No one "sees" that loss when I feel it. I'm not sure how I could measure or quantify that.<br /><br />Loss gets easier over time, but some losses, especially the theft of a loved one through someone else's brutal actions, has to leave scars that are not measurable.maudes haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08310246530830761390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-24132725457645841712016-05-10T20:20:40.105-04:002016-05-10T20:20:40.105-04:00Thanks Maude! That's a very touching story, a...Thanks Maude! That's a very touching story, and I had not heard that before.<br /><br />We really can't compare the victims of WWII to the victims of TLB. There were millions of victims of WWII, and it doesn't begin to compare. Also the victims of WWII suffered for months and even years before finally dying. <br /><br />If Hitler had been imprisoned and then for some freakish reason he came up for parole, I'd bet my bottom dollar that the victims' families would rally against parole. Just a scenario.<br /><br />I can't even begin to identify with the families of the victims of the TLB massacre (and I label it a massacre because that's what it was). I've never had that happen to me, so I can't even begin to know how that feels. <br /><br />When someone is taken suddenly, i.e., car wreck or murder, the people closest to them probably say to themselves "if only I had said this or that, or done this or that". It's human nature.<br /><br />To say that the victims' families don't cry anymore is just ludicrous. I've had moments of reflecting back years ago and I still get a little teary eyed wishing I could go back there one more time.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-70003394656479125682016-05-10T19:52:00.964-04:002016-05-10T19:52:00.964-04:00grimtraveller said...
They certainly were.
I wond...grimtraveller said...<br /><br />They certainly were.<br />I wonder, 47 years later, the extent to which that is currently true.<br />I wonder how many people whose loved ones were killed as POWs during WW2 still cried 40 years later.<br />I don't mean to sound heartless and I'm not saying none would. But I'm genuinely curious, the extent to which these sort of events affect people half a century later in a directly debilitating way.<br />----<br /><br /><i>in a directly debilitating way</i><br /><br /><br />But there’s the rub. Loss, especially under these circumstances, is never truly measurable in a directly visible way. It’s a coloring of a life, or a sad staining of reality that leaves an invisible mark, unseen by most. It cannot easily be measurable and often difficult to put into words. It can reveal itself to others through problematic behaviors, but the pain of loss is uniquely felt by that individual. It is real and should never need to justify itself. Your words,”… in a directly debilitating way” seemed to ask for proof of Loss, and it’s a bit unnerving. How does one prove they’ve been directly debilitated?<br /><br /><br />Here’s an example that seems to show the impact decades later, if I’ve posted this story before, forgive me for I know not what I remember/ forget.<br /><br />I had a roommate in college whose parents and both survived the camps in WWII, believing all their family was lost. They met and married in the US, started a business and became very successful and raised 4 daughters. My roommate’s father would come down to college and take us out to dinner and such. He was a man completely energized and delighted by life. It was palpable and contagious. As someone who had studied the Holocaust, I was impressed, in a profoundly human way by his capacity for joy and beauty, despite his trauma and loss. <br /><br />Later in the year, we went and spent a weekend at her parents’ house. It was the first time I had ever met her mother. Her mother did not smile one time while we were there. She was polite and an impeccable host, but there was a sadness that seeped out of the pores of her being. <br /><br />I was deeply impacted by the dichotomy of their ‘presentation’ to the world. It taught me that people respond, outwardly, differently to trauma, but I never underestimated or compared the pain the parents felt at their loss, they just presented differently. Was her pain worse cuz she presented it? Was his pain worse cuz he denied it? Are those perceptions even true? How could you know that, let alone even measure it?<br /><br />One of their daughters got caught up, ironically, in a Christian cult (they were practicing Jews). Did the trauma-Loss her parents went through have any impact on that? What I call Trickle Down Trauma. My roommate (the baby of the family) could drink any man under the table and rarely show evidence of it. Was she impacted by her parents’ trauma? How does one measure that? I don’t know, but I don’t doubt that what the parents went through DID greatly impact their children, whether in a “directly debilitating way” or not. But how could it not, it impacted me and I only spent hours with them.<br /><br />I later found out that my roommate’s mother had found a living relative. I always hoped that made her smile.<br />maudes haroldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08310246530830761390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-31415102811228842352016-05-10T18:18:02.621-04:002016-05-10T18:18:02.621-04:00sunset77 said...
I didn't know that Ozzy and ... sunset77 said...<br /><br /><b>I didn't know that Ozzy and Sharon had split up</b><br /><br />Ozzy and I are both Brummies {born in Birmingham} by birth. Actually, all the Sabs are.<br />Ozzy did time in prison in his younger days for robbery and burglary. Good thing he never progressed in that direction........<br /><br /><b>bassist and lyricist Geezer Butler</b><br /><br />For me, Butler {along with Martin Turner of Wishbone Ash} is one of the most underrated bassists in heavy rock. I love Black Sabbath's first 6 albums and his playing on them is deceptively creative. He was a frustrated guitarist but made the bass so much more interesting than many guitar players made the guitar. His lead bass style rarely gets any credit, which often makes me wonder. But it's his lyrics for which he is utterly underrated {again along with Turner}. Because Ozzy was such a distinctive singer and talented melodicist, many think he wrote the lyrics but he rarely did. He had the ability to Ozzy~fy the lyrics but most of them on the albums before Ronnie Dio came from Geezer. His lyrics are incredible and his breadth of subject matter across those first six albums leaves me gasping for breath. Sometimes.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-61986197937310240692016-05-10T17:54:18.124-04:002016-05-10T17:54:18.124-04:00katie8753 said...
to compare these victims' f... katie8753 said...<br /><br /><b>to compare these victims' families with families of POW's in WWII is just nuts</b><br /><br />Well, it might be. <br />On the other hand, one can compare anything with anything. Sometimes the entire point of a comparison is to put two different things side by side and see if any common ground can be found. WW2 ended a sufficiently long time ago to at least <i>ask the question</i> if people <i>today</i> who were either not born then or were very young then are directly affected and debilitated by parental or grand~parental deaths that occurred then and how that manifests itself. The emphasis of my point was on being affected by deaths that should not have happened.<br /><br /><b>How do you KNOW they did that? Were you in their jail cells listening?</b><br /><br />How do you know Susan, Tex & Bruce didn't do that ? Have you followed them all around for nearly half a century and gained access to the inner workings of the thought police ?<br /><br /><b>That doesn't sound like they're asking God to forgive them</b><br /><br />I listen to what they have had to say about their lives since conversion. I match that up with the experience of many characters that have undergone a similar conversion {some of whom have reneged on it somewhere down the line} as well as hundreds of people I have known that have undergone the process.....and my own life experience and conversion. While it is true that you can't always know precisely what is going on in someone's head, God challenges me to weigh up and rigorously test all matters. I have my problems with Tex. I have my problems with Bruce. I have problems with much of Susan's life as a christian. But I also know that God deals with us with a patience towards some of our foibles that is, at least to me, astounding.<br /><br /><b>They haven't even asked the families to forgive them, much less God</b><br /><br />Doris Tate said she was not interested in forgiveness where that crowd were concerned. The LaBianca's nephew has said the same thing, more or less. Debra has intimated similar.<br />And I'll say it again, when one of the victims' family members does forgive, you simply cannot allow yourself to take it for what it was and have to throw in lots of anti LaBerge remarks.<br />That, Katie, is why I have no confidence in anything you have to say on the matter of "the murderers, forgiveness and God." It's because you don't actually discuss it, you try to shut it down by blanket bombing statements that either cannot be answered to your satisfaction or throw out any balanced but opposing view which only go to demonstrate your refusal to <i>actually</i> discuss it.<br />Strange thing is, you don't have to believe them in order to have a meaty discussion on the topic. I've had quite a few and most don't believe their conversions.<br /><br /><b>I know you need the last word. Not just about me, but about everyone you encounter</b><br /><br />Ordinary conversations bat back and forth. So do on line ones. I happen to think that many contributors raise enough interesting points to get my thinking faculties into gear. If some of my posts happen to be the last ones, I make no apologies for that.<br /><br /><b>But you must not know me very well</b><br /><br />♪I'm ♫♪♫sure we'll♫ be very happy♫♪♫ together♫ though♪ ! ☺ ☺ ☺<br /><br /><b>I've got some swamp land to sell you</b><br /><br />Ah ! Just what I need to bury some of those last words that I obviously won't be needing anymore.......grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-68555578304289484312016-05-10T16:58:36.937-04:002016-05-10T16:58:36.937-04:00katie8753 said...
Grim's last post wherein he... katie8753 said...<br /><br /><b>Grim's last post wherein he said he was going to work in a couple of hours was posted at 7:37pm Eastern Time, which would be around midnight in the British Isles. At least he claims to be from there. So I'm assuming that's the truth.<br />You must work some kind of "graveyard shift", which could mean a variety of things. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT! HA HA. There's probably a lot of nice people who go to work at 2am</b><br /><br />I start work at 4am. I used to start at 6.30 but many years ago once my children were born, I took a decision to go in earlier so that I could spend as much time as is possible with them, pick them up from the childminder, get them back from nursery, then school, see their school assemblies, get dinner together etc. Fortunately, doing delivery work enabled that. I'm a night creature by nature so 19 years of early mornings {especially when for so long I didn't start work till 12 so didn't have to get up till 10am} has been a shock to the system.<br /><br /><b>He has personalized this stuff about me, so I'm returning the favor</b><br /><br />There is often a tacit assumption that being "personal" is being nasty and certainly negative. It most certainly can be. But I don't see it only that way at all. Many lovely and insightful things are also personal. Many challenges and observations are often personal. I have been personal <i>with</i> you, not about you. Pretty much everything I've ever said in reply to you or about you has been based on something that you, personally have said. If I've made personal observations about something you've said or a way you have come across <i>to me at that time</i> it has never been nasty, vindictive or anything approaching such. As I said a few times when I first started frequenting these pages, that ain't my style. If you feel I've been taking jabs at you, there's not much I can do about that. For the record, I haven't. I don't deny that I am sometimes sarcastic, that springs from my opposition to whoever it was that said sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I have never thought it was. Much of it can be hilarious.<br />Much of what goes on in forums is personal because we are persons, that is how we are made. We're made to be personal. Whether that 'personal' is lighthearted and affectionate or nasty can only be determined from case to case. Back last summer when I said to Surgio that I could make a case for Susan Atkins not being attractive in photos <i>but wouldn't</i>, he called me ugly. That was personal, that was nasty. When Tom G said I looked like I was on crack from my avatar photo, that was personal but that was in jest.<br />Context is everything.<br /><br /><b>Anyway, reading thru my comments back to July is creepy, to say the least</b><br /><br />For the record, I <i>remembered</i> what you'd said. I have a fairly good memory and I often remember things that people say. I actually count people as important enough to remember things that they say. So I remembered what you'd said. I remembered it sufficiently well to register when you said that you didn't hate LVH. Because I recalled you saying the opposite. I gave you the date and the quote simply because I like to reference where I pick statements up from if I can.<br />I'm intrigued as to why recalling something someone has said and when they said it should be deemed as creepy. Are you saying your words aren't worthy of consideration ?<br /><br /><b>You say that the families aren't crying now for their loved ones. How do do you know that? Are you peeking in their windows?</b><br /><br />Hugely ironic given what was just talked about. The record is there for all to see. I did not say that at all.<br /><br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-57582715206390885622016-05-09T21:25:22.801-04:002016-05-09T21:25:22.801-04:00If they would just stay put, realize that they did...<b>If they would just stay put, realize that they did something incomprehensible, they were the reason people are dead now<br /><br />Do you seriously think that they don't realize that ?</b><br /><br />Do you seriously think that they do????? I've got some swamp land to sell you.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-46691581957541908642016-05-09T20:56:12.967-04:002016-05-09T20:56:12.967-04:00Grim's last post wherein he said he was going ...Grim's last post wherein he said he was going to work in a couple of hours was posted at 7:37pm Eastern Time, which would be around midnight in the British Isles. At least he claims to be from there. So I'm assuming that's the truth. <br /><br />He has personalized this stuff about me, so I'm returning the favor.<br /><br />You must work some kind of "graveyard shift", which could mean a variety of things. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT! HA HA. There's probably a lot of nice people who go to work at 2am.<br /><br />Anyway, reading thru my comments back to July is creepy, to say the least. <br /><br />You say that the families aren't crying now for their loved ones. How do do you know that? Are you peeking in their windows? And to compare these victims' families with families of POW's in WWII is just nuts. I still cry for my mother who died of natural causes a few years ago. How much more would I cry for my mother if she had been brutally stabbed to death while she was crawling on the floor face down on the carpet with 3 hooligans making sure she was dead and dead.<br /><br />That was a World War, this are HOME INVASION MURDERS! Whole nuther different thing. And don't say why is it different, because please, you must know the difference between wartime and peacetime. I'm not going to take the time to explain that, because anyone with a thought process already knows that.<br /><br /><b>Your previous statements regarding Susan, Tex and Bruce when they've done this for 35 ~ 42 years give me no confidence at all in what you have to say on the matter. When they bowed their heads and asked God for forgiveness, God forgave and then helped them on the painful journey through the realization of the extent of what they'd done.<br />You just said "I don't believe them."</b><br /><br />How do you KNOW they did that? Were you in their jail cells listening? Susan is dead. Bruce and Tex are arrogant in their parole hearings. Leslie makes stuff up. That doesn't sound like they're asking God to forgive them. They haven't even asked the families to forgive them, much less God.<br /><br />Grim, I know you need the last word. Not just about me, but about everyone you encounter. But you must not know me very well, or you would know that I can do this for as long as it needs be done.<br /><br />Oh and "Toodle Pip" to you.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-69268787313725016332016-05-09T20:17:21.092-04:002016-05-09T20:17:21.092-04:00I think it's time for what we used to call an ...I think it's time for what we used to call an atomic wedgie but now I guess we can call it a cyber atomic wedgie.katie8753https://www.blogger.com/profile/00353364961453501063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-90314259789247207002016-05-09T19:37:42.064-04:002016-05-09T19:37:42.064-04:00katie8753 said...
Or should I make it plainer: SH... katie8753 said...<br /><br /><b>Or should I make it plainer: SHE'S LYING AGAIN. I don't know how to dumb that down anymore than that</b><br /><br />I'm sure you'll find a way.<br /><br /><b>you're not as smart as I thought</b><br /><br />I'm rather proud of that !<br /><br /><br /><br /><b>You're not new or important, you're now just a number</b><br /><br /><i>And</i> I've got work in a couple of hours. Toodle pip !<br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-41257484937585797232016-05-09T19:30:55.413-04:002016-05-09T19:30:55.413-04:00katie8753 said...
If they would just stay put, re... katie8753 said...<br /><br /><b>If they would just stay put, realize that they did something incomprehensible, they were the reason people are dead now</b><br /><br />Do you seriously think that they don't realize that ?<br /><br /><b>they are the reason that families cry at night</b><br /><br />They certainly were.<br />I wonder, 47 years later, the extent to which that is currently true.<br />I wonder how many people whose loved ones were killed as POWs during WW2 still cried 40 years later.<br />I don't mean to sound heartless and I'm not saying none would. But I'm genuinely curious, the extent to which these sort of events affect people half a century later in a directly debilitating way.<br /><br /><b>and if they would just bow their heads and pray for forgiveness to God</b><br /><br />Your previous statements regarding Susan, Tex and Bruce when they've done this for 35 ~ 42 years give me no confidence at all in what you have to say on the matter. When they bowed their heads and asked God for forgiveness, God forgave and then helped them on the painful journey through the realization of the extent of what they'd done.<br />You just said "I don't believe them."<br /><br /><b>But all of this whining to get out of prison, makes me know that they are still selfishly thinking of themselves</b><br /><br />Whining ?<br />Selfish ?<br />Thinking of themselves ?<br />On the face of it there may be something in that. Except that the law that you want upheld so badly makes provision for them to apply for parole. That's the law. <br />It's human nature to take an opportunity that one knows one doesn't deserve ~ and you know it.<br /><br /><b>'Sup Jack, are you stalking me???</b><br /><br />Urgh !<br /><br /><b>That's not a good idea</b><br /><br />Some said that about David Bowie forming Tin Machine.<br /><br /><b>I don't remember your posts from July</b><br /><br />Well, maybe you should.<br /><br /><br /><b>Are you writing another book to be mocked, forgotten and thrown on the back of the shelf?</b><br /><br />Will you write the foreword ?<br /><br /><br /><b>are you stalking me??? I don't remember your posts from July, should I be tracking you?</b><br /><br />When I read what people say when I don't know those people, their words are the only thing that give me a sense of who they are and where they may be coming from. I guess I could just totally dismiss anything you say or not even to bother to read anything you say. Which then begs the question, why bother to contribute to a blog ? There a number of ways to understand a person and in the limited way that we get to do so on blogs and forums, frankly there's not much beyond our words. I happen to be a great believer in the adage that speech is self revealing. So if someone says something one month and then completely contradicts it the next, I am going to try to find out if they've changed their position and why.<br />Be careful what you sign......<br />grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6001083595175224919.post-1106050736798983662016-05-09T18:31:21.171-04:002016-05-09T18:31:21.171-04:00Hey Lynyrd, I get told I look like Sharon Osbourne...Hey Lynyrd, I get told I look like Sharon Osbourne all the time! LOLVenushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510083489728391657noreply@blogger.com