Friday, September 24, 2021

Weird Commonalities Between the Mansonoids and the Victims at Cielo Drive

Write Up by Starviego...Thanks Starviego!

Esalen


Charlie had been by Esalen at least two or three times.  Dianne Lake and Lynette had been there too with Charlie.




Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger, and Rudy Altobelli has also been guests there.

Civil rights do-gooders

Abigail Folger had done social work down in the ghetto in the spring of '69, and several civil rights placards were found in the bedroom she occupied at Cielo.

LADA files Box14 vol3076 pg137of302
(Sandra) Goode was in something called the Black Students Tutorial Program...   she knew black militants at San Francisco State

Military Deserters

www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12b.pdf?fbclid=IwAR00pZ91U3zR6j3NvHt_bubn_bcmEF6KAk31cdVzfOmtU7MEjyuyUqcQs6s

Manson Case Files Box 12b pg186of358
LA Times article Aug 10, 1969

"She (Garretson's mom) said he (Garretson) told of entertaining young friends in his caretaker's quarters including  an AWOL Marine later caught and sent to the brig."

Manson had his own AWOL Marines in the person of Family associates Vern Plumlee and Robert Russell

Black Panthers

The Family thought Charlie had shot a Black Panther, and the plan was to blame the crime on the Panthers.


Restless Souls by Brie Tate  c.2012 pg73

PJ:  "Many speculated that the word PIG left in blood at Sharon's house was a calling card from the revolutionary party the Black Panthers."

Folger had her own link to the Panthers:

Restless Souls pg72
PJ surveils houseboats in San Marin (the Bay Area) as part of his own investigation in mid Sept. of 1969.   A car he surveils "belonged to a high-ranking Black Panther...  Even more interesting, the investigators link him to Abigail Folger's social work."

Drugs

Drug use was widespread within the Family, of course.

Sebring was dealing and Frykowski, at least, were using drugs heavily at times while at Cielo.

Pedophilia

It is well known that both Charlie and Roman liked their young loves:

Patricia Krenwinkel 2016 Parole Hearing Transcript
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: what do you think of Manson today?
INMATE KRENWINKEL: ...he's a pedophile, he slept with girls that were 12 years old at the ranch, 13 years old, 14 years old, 15 years old.

The Andy Warhol Diaries by Andy Warhol, pg110, entry of Feb, 1978
(Movie Director) Stan Dragoti who was there said that he used to live next door to Roman in Hollywood and that Roman actually did date eleven-year olds.

And Jay too:
sensationalsharontate.blogspot.com/2010/03/rare-french-sharon-tate-article.html
Sharon on Jay Sebring "I called him the other day to find out how he was doing. He told me that now he was going out with a 15 year old girl."

Hippies

The Family were identified as Hippies numerous times before and after the arrests for TLB

And Roman liked to refer to Sharon as his pefect 'hippie' wife.

Witches

LADA files Box 30 pg79of738
"All the "guys" and appellant Manson called the girls "witches." "


RESTLESS SOULS  by Brie Tate

PJ: Finally, by the summer of 1965, Ransohoff cast Sharon opposite Diavid Niven and Kim Novak in the film 13 (released as Eye of the Devil). The plot centered on the famous grape harvests of France, but with a twist, an ancient Wicca sect requires a blood sacrifice to save the harvest.


Sharon left London three weeks before filming began... to prepare for her role as the cult's high priestess. She spent ..afternoons with technical advisors who taught her the customs of black magic.

Manson Case Files Box 12b pg166of358 LA Times article, Aug 17, 1969
"Abigail Folger... became increasingly fascinated with the study of black magic." "But Frokowsy and Miss Folger were involved with strange people. She was interested in witch-craft, Black Masses, that sort of thing...."

Home video porn projects

Roman of course did his own filming at home, even his and Sharon's intimate moments.

And it is strongly suspected that Charlie did the same within the Family.  Others:
LADA files Box 6 Vol176 pg68of164
Fromme:  "Mr. Flynn is on film.  We have a film of him.  There are a lot of things that you won't let come out."

Surveillance

It is well known that the Spahn Ranch was under surveillance by the cops before and after TLB.

"Born to Kill" video 2012
Hoyt at Spahn : "Charlie had Family members up here on the hill watching the cops watch us... so we were all watching each other. It was all fun...

Chaos, by Tom O'Neill, pg200
On Doris Tate: "Like her husband, she'd conducted her own investigation through the years, becoming convinced that the Cielo house was under surveillance by some type of law enforcement at the time of the murders."

Performing Artists

Both Spahn and Cielo Dr. were full of people associated with show biz, of one form or another/  See here:



https://murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/1347/performing-artists-tlb-case

Now you may think these are just some odd coincidences between Spahn and Cielo, but how many of these commonalities do you see between Spahn and Waverly Drive?  None of them.

Was the counterculture on the low end (Spahn) chosen to attack the counterculture on the high end (Cielo)?  Killing two birds with one stone?

59 comments:

katie8753 said...

Thanks Starviego! I've said so many times that there were so little similarities between the Cielo Drive and Waverly Drive murders. I've pointed it out many times. The only similar thing was the writing on the walls in blood. And of course it was the next night.

But I've never looked at the similarities between the Cielo Drive victims and the Manson Family.

Interesting!

katie8753 said...

Starviego, how do you know that Sebring was dealing?

UtahBeach said...

We should probably add that Bernard Crowe, who was shot by Manson, was the drug dealer to the "high end" counterculture crowd, including Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher.

UtahBeach said...

Katie, while I don't subscribe to the drug burn theory, Sebring was known to deal small amounts of different narcotics. I think he used the drugs for his clients, rather than regular dealing. Frykowski was an actual dealer, just not a very good one. I know stuff was found in his car, not that much.

This link gives a pretty good explanation of what was found and where: https://www.mansonblog.com/2018/11/all-about-drugs-at-cielo.html

starviego said...

Katie,

Neille Adams, the ex-wife of Steve McQueen, said Sebring would visit her house with his briefcase full of little packets of cocaine.

I am still baffled that the toxicologists never tested for the presence of cocaine or THC in the bodily fluids of the Tate victims, even though those were the main drugs found at the scene.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Utah & Starviego! I know that Sebring, Frykowski and Gibby were taking drugs. Most notably, the new drug MDA. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Frykowski was dealing drugs, but I would be surprised to hear that Sebring was dealing drugs.

I would think the only reason to DEAL drugs was to make money. I "hear" that Sebring was having money troubles. Roman said Jay owed his dentist $5,000. That was a lot of money in 1969. You could probably get your whole mouth rebuilt for $5,000.

I think Jay was making a lot of money from his hair cutting business, but I also hear that he was in over his head with debt, probably because of unwise money spending.

I know he liked race cars, and he liked to buy them. And they're not cheap!

So, bottom line is this. I have no idea if Jay Sebring was selling drugs or not. But I honestly don't think that he was the cause of the Cielo Drive murders.

Dilligaf said...

“Briefcase full of little packets”. I would say that would depend on one’s definition of what “full” is? Does it mean his Samsonite was packed with grams of cocaine? That would have been hundreds of bundles. Or was it a few eight balls? A simple statement from the former Mrs. McQueen, on its own, does not mean much. Perception does not always make reality…

starviego said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starviego said...

If you read Neille's book, she makes it clear she blamed Sebring for being Steve's supplier.

Dilligaf said...

I am sure she did blame him, but my point is that her statement is subjective, thus singularly not reliable. If one person has a few eight balls, and another is carrying a couple of keys, they are both dealers, but the level of each is different. I am not excusing Sebring for selling to some friends, but there has been nothing to substantiate him being a heavy player, nor a reason for his death.

starviego said...

I certainly agree that Sebring wasn't a 'heavy' player, and that his cocaine habit had nothing to do with his murder.

katie8753 said...

Hey Starviego, I didn't know that or remember that Gibby was interested in Black Magic or witchcraft. Can you post a link for that? Thanks!

starviego said...

Scroll to pg167of358 (upper right hand side of page) of this collection of newspaper articles for the relevant quote:

http://www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12b.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0dot08RE233_UOtTFiCnbN_gwwxThwPMNaYxeepllKTF-BoaFouzgmB4g

katie8753 said...

Okay thanks!

katie8753 said...

Starviego, that article was written by a reporter who obviously didn't have all the facts. He says Abigail was interested in Black Magic, but he doesn't support that with any facts. He says that Voytek & Gibby were involved with "strange people" and went to "weird kinky places".

He also says that the killers entered the property by pushing the electric gate button and that there was a party there that night, both of which are not true.

Do you know who these "strange people" are that Gibby & Voytek were seeing, or these "weird kinky places" are?

BTW that's really interesting reading. Cielodrive.com has some good stuff on there.

katie8753 said...

I remember when these murders happened. I was watching American Bandstand on TV that Saturday which came on around 11:00am Central Time and they interrupted the show with a news broadcast about these horrible murders in "Hollywood", which was very shocking. Then day after day following these murders, there were articles in the paper, blaming the victims by saying it was some kind of devil worship they had been involved in, basing that on the fact that Sharon had been in that movie about witchcraft. They also played up the drug angle, saying the victims were all having drug orgies, etc. This basically went on day after day until the killers' identities were discovered in December of 1969.

So basically, the newspapers were writing shocking stories about these murders to sell papers.

BTW I don't really remember them reporting on the LaBianca murders much, just the Cielo Drive murders.

starviego said...

katie8753 said...
Do you know who these "strange people" are that Gibby & Voytek were seeing, or these "weird kinky places" are?

No, I was just citing the LA Times because it's major media and thus generally considered reliable. Though as you pointed out, the assertions made are unsupported and rather speculative in nature. Take it with a grain of salt!

UtahBeach said...

Katie,
Voytek and Abigail attended a lot of parties in Hollywood that summer, like at Mama Cass' house and John Phillips' place. Maybe Starviego could corroborate (or correct me), but supposedly there was a party for Roger Vadim at Cielo the week of the murders or around first week of August?
Plus, earlier that summer there was the famous Billy Doyle whipping (and the whole Canadian drug gang was there too). So, in a sense they were just typical Hollywood parties with stars and their drug dealers. Kinky, but typical. Strange people to us regular folk.

UtahBeach said...

Correction on one point: the Billy Doyle whipping occurred at Mama Cass' house, not Cielo. I did not want to leave that impression.

beauders said...

Who is Robert Russell? Is that name an alias for a Manson Family member?

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill, Starviego & Utah! I agree with Dill of course, that Jay Sebring didn't cause these deaths.

I also agree with Starviego & Utah, that some very strange things happened with/to the victims at Cielo Drive in the weeks before their deaths. It doesn't mean they were into the occult, but it does mean that they were delving into certain areas that weren't "logical".

Doesn't mean they caused it. But what exactly does it mean? Still doing research!

katie8753 said...

Hi Beauders!!!

katie8753 said...

I keep wondering why Gibby & Voytek moved to LA and rented that house on Woodstock Drive in 1968, and in early 1969 they moved into 10050 Cielo Drive, because Roman and Sharon had rented that house but had to leave to do filming in Europe and he wanted someone to "house sit" for them.

Why would Gibby & Voytek pay rent on that house on Woodstock and live at Cielo Drive for 5 or 6 months???? Were they paying Roman & Sharon more rent? Were they freeloaders?

And why would Roman & Sharon rent that house knowing they were leaving the country for a few months? Why not just stay at a hotel until they were ready to come back to the USA and have the baby??

That stuff just doesn't make any sense to me!

sunset77 said...

Here is some info about a "Robert Russell" associated with the Manson family. I don't have time to make a clickable link--https://www.cielodrive.com/archive/mansons-ex-pal-gets-an-attorney/

starviego said...

A bit more on Russell here:

https://www.mansonblog.com/2017/12/vern-plumlee-unanswered-questions.html

UtahBeach said...

Katie, Gibby had plenty of money and her yearly income was probably 10x that of the average 20 something in the 1960s. So $$ was not an issue.

Roman rented the house because Sharon wanted it and they had been living at Patty Duke's place, but it was a busy street. Sharon wanted some place quieter (how ironic). And...when Gibby and Voytek moved in at Sharon & Roman's request, they did not expact to be there that long. Thought they were originally scheduled to move out early July. I think the police found that almost none of their personal belongings were at the house while investigating. Except for clothes..

katie8753 said...

Thanks Guys!

Has anyone ever seen the lease agreement on the Cielo Drive house between Altobelli and the Polanskis? After the murders, Altobelli sued Roman for damages to the house and also for unpaid rent. I'm assuming he's talking about the rent for August. Not sure why that wasn't paid. Rent is usually due on the 1st of the month.

Altobelli was also upset that Gibby & Voytek were living there, because they were not on the lease. I was wondering if that was in the lease agreement.

I'm assuming he was placing blame on the victims for what happened and for the resulting damage to his flooring. Like I said, all the papers were printing articles that said the victims were asking for it.

Of course, to be fair, what happened at the house wasn't Altobelli's fault either, and someone had to pay for the damages to the house...

starviego said...


Blogger UtahBeach said...
... supposedly there was a party for Roger Vadim at Cielo the week of the murders or around first week of August?

That was on Tuesday, August 5th. Which is all we know about that event. No one who was there wants to talk about it.

katie8753 said...

Sorry guys I'm not aware of a party for Roger Vadim on August 5th at Cielo Drive. There was a party in March at Cielo Drive, which Roger & his commie wife Jane Fonda were invited to, but I don't know of any party on August 5th. Who else was on the party list?

Sorry to be a bother, but please provide facts!

katie8753 said...

Supposedly Sharon went to dinner at someone's house on Wednesday and left early, saying she "didn't feel good". And then on Friday, she was supposed to go her friend Sheila's house and begged off that saying she "didn't feel good" and wanted to stay home that night. It stands to reason that if she didn't feel good on Wednesday and Friday that she wouldn't feel good enough to have a party at her house on Tuesday. That's just common sense.

It takes a lot more effort to host a party than it does to just attend a gathering at someone else's house. You have to provide food, drink and entertainment, not to mention all the house cleaning that's involved before and after.

starviego said...

From The Family, by Ed Sanders, pg262

"On Tuesday or Wednesday, August 5 or 6, there evidently was a party at 10050 Cielo Drive in honor of French director Roger Vadim, in celebration of Vadim's completion of a motion picture and his imminent return to Europe. An area of silence surrounds this event. Attempts to secure information about it have resulted in tense uneasiness from those alleged to have been on the set, so to speak."

beauders said...

Thanks Star and yes Katie there were two recent parties for that crowd right before the murders. One was at Tate's and one was at Mama Cass's. Mama Cass's party was the violent one and Sharon was not there. From what I know about Tate she would not have allowed what happened to Pic Dawson to happen on her property. For those interested Oxygen Channel has a special on serial monster Lawrence Bittaker. He explained himself to one person. This is that story.

beauders said...

The Bittaker story is on tonight on Oxygen Channel. I wish Oxygen would stop doing crime and put the Bad Girls Club back on. The Bad Girls Club was/is the best reality series yet, it is like Bravo's Real Housewives but these girls make absolute fools of themselves, yes I like soap opera's and reality tv, I call it tacky tv.

UtahBeach said...

Thanks, Starviego. I think the only person to admit being at a party up there prior the murders was Dennis Hopper. He was a frequent guest at Mama Cass as well.

katie8753 said...

Hey ya'll! Thanks for your comments!! Venus wrote this to me:

Hey girl, I've been wanting to jump into the latest post but haven't been able to do it. For some reason, I can't seem to post there anymore.

Anyway....yes, there was a party on Aug 5th at Cielo. I don't remember it being FOR Roger Vadim but he and Jane were there. This was the party where he went looking for Jane and found her coming out of a bathroom followed by Jay. According to Roger, she looked at him and said that she hated it when things were only half finished!

��So....go figure! I THINK (if I remember correctly) that Roger had asked a housekeeper (no name mentioned) if she'd seen Jane and I think he followed her to the bathroom. I know he made a comment about the housekeeper having her hands full in that house.

Later he, Jane, and a few others who shall remain nameless, had their own "party." These stories are in his autobiography and a few of Jane's biographies. I haven't read them in years tho.

Oh....Jay's dentist bill? It WAS just a dental bill.

katie8753 said...

August 5th was a Tuesday. I'm surprised that Sharon felt like having a party that day, but it seems I'm over-ruled. Evidently there was a party there.

I guess Sharon "feeling bad" came and went. LOL.

As Starviego pointed out, Ed Sanders said that people were "uneasy to speak about it". Maybe it was because of what Venus pointed out. Shenanigan's in the "pulldown"!!! HA HA HA HA!!!

katie8753 said...

So who is Robert Russell?

starviego said...

see the links posted above

beauders said...

Katie it looks like psycho Thomas is going to get obsessed with Paris.

beauders said...

Ick we saw Liam in his undies.

beauders said...

I wish Ridge would go back to Paris (the city, not the woman).

katie8753 said...

Beauders, I don't know why Thomas thought it would be a good idea to start wearing a bun on his head! He looks silly.

And why is everyone in love with Paris? One episode was nothing but how perfect, smart and talented Paris is. When she sang the National Anthem I had to put a pillow over my head. She's AWFUL!!!

At least Deacon is back. And it's the same old thing. Ridge and Brook screaming at people that they can't be a parent to so & so. Like Ridge and Brook are "parents of the year"!

I hope Deacon and Sheila get together and cause some trouble. LOL.

beauders said...

Deacon and Sheila teaming up would be fun.

beauders said...

Katie when you have time go to YouTube and watch “The Devil and the Death Penalty,” it is about those two horrid serial killers Bittaker and Norris. It runs about one hour and eleven minutes so not a huge time commitment and features Stephen Kay who put Bittaker on death row. He lived almost forty years on death row but eventually he died from cancer and heart disease. He got off easy if you ask me.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders. I'll try and watch that this weekend.

Deacon and Sheila met up at a bar, which is a no-no for any parolee, but in CA I guess you can do whatever you want! I really hope they connive together because the show is getting so gutted by accolades for Paris that it's going to be archived in a few days for a still shot!

Steven Kay from his mother! HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoXN1KkgShU

katie8753 said...

After Manson says "Steven Kay from his mother", that guy says "okay". WHOA!!!!!!!!! HA HA HA!!

I can't stand Manson, but I've gotta say, he had a talent for comedic humor. He had perfect timing. Just like me. Hee Hee!!

Okay enough! Just interjecting a little humor! :)

beauders said...

Well Katie I do think in California people do get away with things, that's one of the things we all about Manson why was he on the streets for so long after he broke parole 25+ times. Yes I find that clip with Manson and Kay funny too. Kay putting Bittaker on death row makes him a hero of mine. He also saw to it that Norris never got out and was housed at the shittiest prison's in California. The documentary about Bittaker and Norris leaves out a lot of the violence, just know these are very definition of evil. If you want to know what they really did I'll tell any of you just email me at beauders@aol.com. It is not something that I want to tell you all for it is so violent and horrible I don't want to shock anyone by putting it on the blog, even though I mentioned some of it before. Katie, since you are in Texas, what is your opinion on abortion?

katie8753 said...

Thanks Beauders. Personally I don't believe that abortion should be legal. But that's my opinion, and isn't the law.

In Texas, they've made it a law that you can't get one after 6 weeks. That's made a lot of people mad. I think it's a fair compromise. The abortion trade has become monstrous. They're even killing babies AFTER they're born, using the little bodies for experiments. Pathetic!

There are so many people who would love to adopt a baby because they can't have one of their own, but there are so few babies to adopt. A pregnant woman who doesn't want the kid doesn't have to keep him/her after birth. There are plenty of people with open arms!

beauders said...

I don't know if I told you but I am adopted, so I have mixed feelings about abortion. I know my birth mother had a choice to make and she chose to give me life. I was born in 1964 when there was no Roe v Wade, but abortions were still available. As I age I appreciate my birth mother more and more. She was 21 when she had me and had an older daughter. She was also divorced, which was not common in 1964 especially for a 21 year old woman. I don't know if I was the reason for the divorce but I know her ex-husband is not my birth father. My birth father was an older man in his 40's. I am fairly positive he has died. On the other hand I don't think women should be forced to have children if they don't want to. You stated above that there are plenty of people who would love to adopt the child. So it's hard, for my sister, who is also adopted from a different family, she a close loving relationship with her birth mother. I always go back though that the women who don't want to be pregnant shouldn't be forced to carry children. I think the mother's right to do with her body what she wants is the first concern. I think abortion is a necessary evil, but I do change my opinions on regular interval's.

katie8753 said...

Well I guess there are 2 ways to look at adoption. One of my favorite Father Knows Best episodes was the one where Kathy thought she was adopted. And she was upset until she talked to another girl who was adopted, and she told Kathy she was "special and chosen". Watch that episode.

The big thing I have against abortion is that it's used as a form of birth control. And that should not be. Any woman who engages in sex should use birth control, or suffer the consequences. Because it's not the man who suffers it, it's the woman.

I hear screams and cries from people that rape victims should never have to have a child against her will.

I agree with that. That's a different scenario. Any woman who is raped should be given a State-paid D&C within a week. That will take care of that, and she will never even know if she was pregnant, so there is no guilt.

A woman who wasn't agreeable to sex shouldn't have to go thru pregnancy and birth, but a woman who willingly engages in sex and doesn't practice birth control should be fully responsible to carrying a child to term. After that, she has options.

beauders said...

Well we agree, abortion is not birth control.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I don't know if you have children, but I do know, that since I do, that a mother understands that life begins at conception.

A woman knows she's pregnant right off the bat! There are definite signs. And when that child grows, you feel it. There's no way a mother doesn't know her child is alive!

I will never believe there are mothers who don't know that!

I think abortion is an operation of "convenience". It's never convenient to have a child. But, it's a responsibility!!!

katie8753 said...

Remember this. Your mother didn't choose abortion, she chose life for you!

That speaks volumes!

Rock N. Roll said...

In Texas, they've made it a law that you can't get one after 6 weeks. That's made a lot of people mad. I think it's a fair compromise. The abortion trade has become monstrous. They're even killing babies AFTER they're born, using the little bodies for experiments. Pathetic!

This statement is utterly ridiculous and a complete fabrication.

katie8753 said...

Abortion up to the moment of birth, and after birth abortions. These killings are not to save the mother's life, but rather to make the mother's life more convenient to not have a baby with an unwanted medical condition or that just isn't "pretty enough".

https://www.dailywire.com/news/these-8-states-allow-abortion-moment-birth-amanda-prestigiacomo

https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261

beauders said...

Katie are you talking about stem cell research? I remember you lost your mother to Alzheimer’s as did I. Stem cell research is going to cure Alzheimer’s some day. Maybe you and I won’t get Alzheimer’s some day because of this research.

beauders said...

And no Katie I only have cats not any kids but I do have 3 nieces and 2 nephews.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I'm not sure how good I feel about not getting Alzheimer's if it means that an innocent baby has to die.

grimtraveller said...

Blogger katie8753 said...

August 5th was a Tuesday. I'm surprised that Sharon felt like having a party that day, but it seems I'm over-ruled. Evidently there was a party there

Not according to Winifred Chapman.
She remembered a gathering on Friday, August 1st, but said there was nothing after that.
Tuesday, August 5th is the day she washed the door in Sharon's room ~ the door Pat's fingerprint was later found.