Wednesday, September 25, 2019

Leslie loses latest attempt at Parole

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-09-20/manson-follower-leslie-van-houten-loses-latest-attempt-at-parole


Submitted by Lee

75 comments:

katie8753 said...

Horse Teeth is stayin' put.

beauders said...

She's gonna die in prison. Katie, Thomas was such a jerk to Douglas on B&B today. The kids on B&B are really cute and good actors. Was Ridge such a jerk before the actor change? I didn't watch B&B before with original Ridge. I consider myself a Guiding Light and As The World Turns widow. I got hooked as a teenager while recovering from two knee surgeries.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I watched As the World Turns since the 50's. My baby sitter watched it back in 1958 and I watched along. I learned who the Hughes's and the Stewart's were. LOL. Then as I grew up I kept watching it. As the World Turns was the best soap there was. They lengthened it from 30 minutes to an hour and I watched it every day from 1pm to 2pm. They used to have ATWT on from 12:30 to 1:00, then when the B&B came out, they ran that from 12:30 to 1pm, and then ATWT from 1 to 2pm.

Anyway, the Ridge they have on now is just ugly and grody. The Ridge they used to have on was just GORGEOUS!!! Watch some old re-runs and you will see the gorgeous Ridge. I think he quit to do something else. When I saw that scene where Shawna kissed him when he was drunk I almost threw up. He's so disgusting. His voice is like a growl. BTW I like Denise Richards on that show. Comic relief.

Anyway Douglas is the cutest kid I've seen in a long time. He's a good little actor. He can look so scared. Thomas is a freak. Don't know where all that is going.

Katie all of the sudden needs a "kidney transplant". I don't like her anyway. But Brooke et al can give a kidney, and Bill finally loves Katie, although he'll fall in love with someone else next week. LOL.

Dilligaf said...

LVH is staying put for now, but don’t count on her staying there until she dies. With California’s continual decriminalization of crime, recent laws granting elderly inmates the right to petition for release under state law, the odds are that she will find a sympathetic court that will rule in her favor...

CarolMR said...

Horse Teeth is stayin' put - Katie

LOL!!

Katie, I feel conflicted about Leslie. I think she deserves to be in prison for life. I feel that way about anyone who commits murder or participates in murder. On the other hand, if Leslie were involved in any murder but TLB, she would surely have been released by now. Leslie remaining in prison is all about the famous victims involved. The LaBiancas weren't famous, but they became part of the Cielo victims.

katie8753 said...

Hi Carol! I think Leslie remaining in prison is a lot more than just the famous victims, or the "Manson victims".

To me, it's about young troubled people being manipulated by a "cult leader" who basically managed to control them by giving them drugs and re-controlling them by changing their past behavior.

It's nothing new to cult behavior, and if anyone says Manson wasn't a cult leader, they need to re-think their position.

What's scary is if a young person was that easily manipulated, why would it not happen again? There's a new cult leader with every passing year. All it takes is an easily manipulated victim.

Chances are that Leslie wouldn't even jaywalk if she was released, but is it worth taking the chance that someone else could brainwash her into killing?

There are lots of murders, but are there that many murders that involve young people being completely controlled into killing people they don't even know?

I don't think so.

Dilligaf said...

Yesterday’s cults are today’s street gangs....

katie8753 said...

Right on Dill!!!

beauders said...

Katie, I started watching Guiding Light and As The World Turns in 1981 after having open knee surgery. If you know anything about knee surgeries having your knee opened up hurts like hell and takes several months to heal. The next year I had to have my other knee opened and repaired. I had a lot of time to watch TV. I like soaps more than most TV, especially sitcoms and movies and such. I do like documentaries though. I like stories that never end. My favorite novel is "The Stand" by Stephen King, my second novel is "The Witching Hour" by Anne Rice. Both are long. I'm getting to an age now where I just have to have my knees replaced, I'm hoping I will be bionic then. I haven't had the greatest health in my life, but I'm tough and that's what counts in the long run.

katie8753 said...

Beauders, I hope your knees recover completely. I know many people with knee problems and it's a constant worry.

I've read most of Stephen King's early books, but I stopped reading when he got really weird. He's one of my favorite writers. I also like Dean Koontz.

There are plenty of TLB books to read evidently, although most of them might be considered sci fi like Koontz & King.

Best wishes for your recovery!

p.s. I think Flo is going to give Katie an "organ" to get back into the graces of the Logans. FYI.

katie8753 said...

BTW I recommend "IT" by Stephen King for you to read if you haven't. I read that book back in 1987 when it first came out and I couldn't put it down.

Don't watch the movie first, read the book! The book is always better!

orwhut said...

Dilligaf said...
LVH is staying put for now, but don’t count on her staying there until she dies. With California’s continual decriminalization of crime, recent laws granting elderly inmates the right to petition for release under state law, the odds are that she will find a sympathetic court that will rule in her favor...

Dilligaf,
This is an interesting thought. Would a petition for release bypass the governor's ability to quash it?

Mon Durphy said...

The governor has the last say just like the president has final say on laws in this country, if Newsom doesn't want her fugly ass out she's not getting out, I never thought I'd agree with a wacko liberal like Newsom on anything but I do on this, I'm just dorry I coulfntc see her tears when she heard the news

Mon Durphy said...

Sorry not sorry, typo

Dilligaf said...

Orwhut,

Here is, unfortunately, how I see it going. LVH’s attorney, relying on AB1448, will petition the BPH, claiming that LVH has met every criteria set forth in that legislation, which she has. The BPH, under the criteria set forth, will agree, and grant parole. The governor will override that decision, LVH will file suit, she will win. The state may appeal, but will lose as under that legislation, LVH does not meet any of the requirements for parole denial. This is a classic example of unforeseen consequences of feel good legislation. Liberal politicians wanted to reduce the prison population and this was one way. What they did not consider was the number of murderers who should remain in prison who would age out solely because of political ineptness...

katie8753 said...

I wonder what Leslie would do if she got out. She's got nowhere to live, no income, no prospects for job opportunities because she's basically worthless, and who would hire her anyway? If she got out, surely she couldn't stay in CA. It's too expensive, unless the State of CA has a fund that will pay her way for the rest of her days.

She might want to re-think her release. Like that guy on Shawshank.

Mon Durphy said...

Lol "Leslie was here"

orwhut said...

Mon and Dilligaf,
Thank you for your responses.

beauders said...

Katie, Van Houten has family who will take care of her. She doesn't state or Federal support or a job.

beauders said...

Katie on page 215 of "Creepy Crawling" the author claims that Ed Sanders said the following, "did Jay Sebring cut the hair of the LaBiancas?' and I wonder why would he ask that? Did he hear something a rumor? Could Suzan LaBerge be the connection between Cielo, Waverly, and Spahn Ranch? I know you suspect LaBerge may have been involved in Waverly murders, but what if she was the go between between Cielo and Spahn Ranch and the connection between Waverly and Spahn Ranch? Just a curiousity.

katie8753 said...

Beauders I've always thought that Suzanne was a possible reason for the Waverly killings. The police report says that Rosemary and Suzanne fought a lot about Joe Dorgan and his gang connections. How many times in the 60's did a girl choose a "gang banger" over her parents?

It seems odd that Charlie drove around for hours, then suddenly zoomed to the Waverly Drive house because he knew they were home. I've always thought that someone alerted him that the Labiancas were at home. And there are only 2 people on earth who could have known that. The newspaper guy or Suzanne.

I've never heard that Jay cut the LaBianca's hair. That might be a stretch.

I've never thought that there was a link between Cielo & Waverly. I've always just thought they were 2 different locations that Manson wanted to kill people. I think they were 2 separate reasons.

But knowing Manson, there just might be a connection. And it's up to us to figure it out. Because dead men don't talk anymore.

Mon Durphy said...

I had a discussion on a FB group about the reason or reasobs for Waverly and after years of trying to connect different reasons and people I've just come to the opinion that alot of the suspicious looking stuff with Suzan is just unfounded and if she hadn't befriended Tex in 1990 it wouldnt have gotten a second look, if you whittle it down to common sense it would appear that after driving around town for a couple of hours Charlie or Linda found themselves down Sunset near East Hollywood and Los Feliz and he thought me and Clem have guns so even if Harold and his roomates they could be kept at bay while they robbed them so Charlie went over there, got out, walked up to 3267 and saw the place was dark and vacant and thought to himself "shit it's getting late and I really need some cash, there's a light on next door, let me check it out" and we all know what happened next

Mon Durphy said...

The only other thing I can think of is there's an interesting mention of an "Edward Sunshine Pierce" in the homicide report on the suspect list as a guy who had a bookie service and lived on Waverly Dr and disappeared the week after the murders AND convenientely an Edward Sunshine Pierce is listed in Ed Sanders book as a guy who hung around Spahn Ranch

beauders said...

The Edward Sunshine Pierce was the guy Manson asked to kill someone for him, that he would give him money and a car. Pierce was rational enough to call his mother who then wired him enough money to get home in Texas. If I remember correctly he had the girls at Spahn patch up his pants and off he went. I tend to agree with you Mon that the Waverly house was picked because Manson etc knew the layout from trysting there when it was empty. I just thought Sanders asking that question was interesting and could be an idea as a way to tie everyone together if there is a tie.

Mon Durphy said...

What do you say to Pierce being listed in the homicide report?

Mon Durphy said...

For some reason there were 3 men in the car night 2 with two of them armed with guns, this tells me they suspected they'd encounter more resistance than on night 1

Mon Durphy said...

Ok I went back and looked at the homicide report and the Pierce listed in the report is "Edward Pierce aka the Phantom" and that one of his known associates was a gangster named Albert E Sunshine" so that's where I was getting the "Sunshine" connection, probably just a coincidence

Mon Durphy said...

One VERY interesting thing in the LaBianca homicide report for me has always been his statement to either Pete DeSantis or his mother of "I need to sell my shares in the company and get out of LA, it's literally a matter of life and death, I'm asking for my life", I'm pretty sure there was a meeting set up with Leno, his mother and DeSantis to figure out how to get Leno square with Gateway financially so he could leave the company and make a new start, he had put a down payment on a ranch and I think wanted to move there and it's hard for me to believe that Rosemary would want to move out to the boonies so my guess would be there were some marital problems with Leno and Rosemary

beauders said...

I know that Leno LaBianca's mother and DeSantis were going to removed Leno from Gateways Markets, the Monday after his death.

Doug said...

Just wondering (please don't think that I am being hostile here...I'm not) how it is that you know "She's got nowhere to live, no income, no prospects for job opportunities because she's basically worthless, and who would hire her anyway?"

As crazy as it might seem...I'm sure she has some sort of "sponsor" for a job, as well as for a place to live. She's done well with scholastic endeavors while incarcerated too.

I'm not Pro-Manson Family by any stretch of the imagination but, I'd wager that she's sorted if/when she's released. I would think that these things are required to be paroled also.

Just sayin

Doug said...

It's also very interesting that Leno and Rosemary fought with Suzan about Joe Dorgan because he pretty much "evaporates" from the entire sphere of TLB and MF/Bikers while Suzan just becomes more and more wound up in all of it. For my money Suzan is a lot more sketchy and, warrants more attention directed at, and caution dealing with.

She's scary

Doug said...

Mon wrote -

"I've just come to the opinion that alot of the suspicious looking stuff with Suzan is just unfounded and if she hadn't befriended Tex in 1990 it wouldnt have gotten a second look."

I used to think that way too, but she showed another, more whacked out & stalkerish side later on with regard to Patti Tate/Alisa Statman and, their children (Patti's kids).

Kinda creepy

Doug said...

Yeah, I would tend to think that there was a fair amount of tension in that house at that time. Rosemary seemed to REALLLLY like to be pampered and, she had made quite the ascension from modest means and social status to a very healthy bankroll and, the means to support a boutique (which must've been hemorrhaging money as fast as Leno could embezzle it)! Leno was financially in virtual quicksand due to his Jones for the ponies. I'd think that Rosemary wouldn't be so keen on the situation. And, she had no problems straying or, trading up in husbands/lovers in the past.
Maybe Suzan cribbed from her mother in developing her own attraction to bad boys and, her thirst for $ but laziness in procuring it herself.

Gotta be something going on there

Mon Durphy said...

Yeah I mentioned that up a few posts, Leno made a statement when talking to DeSantis that is VERY curious in my opinion, "I need to get out of LA, it's a matter of life and death, I'm asking for my life"

katie8753 said...

Doug:

As crazy as it might seem...I'm sure she has some sort of "sponsor" for a job, as well as for a place to live. She's done well with scholastic endeavors while incarcerated too.

Thanks Doug. I think Beauders mentioned that she can live with family. I think her parents are dead so I'm assuming that would be siblings. I think she had a brother and some adopted younger siblings. Not sure who is still living or not.

I'm not sure who would sponsor a convicted murderer, but I hope they have such a lucrative business that hiring her wouldn't put a strain on it. I know she has attended "school" in prison and I guess obtained some kind of degree. Don't know what she majored in, but hopefully it was something practical.

Leslie is pushing 70 years old so I can't imagine that she would be that dynamic in the work place. But I could be wrong. Maybe she has skills in something other than being a high school princess and "doing something".

katie8753 said...

And I think Suzanne is dangerous. I'm not sure what her "buddying up" to Tex years ago meant, but I think that's pretty psychotic.

Dilligaf said...

This is California, she would be a celebrity in certain Hollywood circles. She could easily ride that gravy train for awhile, playing the victim card at the hands of other. If nothing else, she could give lessons on effective dumpster diving.....

katie8753 said...

Dill, LOL. Maybe she could be on a reality show.

grimtraveller said...

Mon Durphy said...

For some reason there were 3 men in the car night 2 with two of them armed with guns, this tells me they suspected they'd encounter more resistance than on night 1

On the other hand, a perusal of the actual facts presents a completely different story.
Firstly, the reason there were 3 men in the car is simply because there was supposed to be two death squads that night. In fact, there were two death squads ~ the LaBianca killers and the Ocean Front Walk trio. Each had a man and two women.
Secondly, only Charlie had a gun, the .45. He used that to subdue the LaBiancas while Tex tied them up and once tied, no gun was needed. He knew what Pat and Tex had done the night before. 102 stab wounds was international news on August 9th & 10th. And he knew Linda hadn't administered any of them......
Clem ended up with the .45 because before he left the 2nd squad at the apartments of Nader, he gave Clem the gun. It works out nice and squarely for Charlie ~ his failed attempts at a kill that night are now forgotten and the emphasis is on what the death squads do {or don't do}.
Clever Charles.
It's not so much that he thought he'd encounter more resistance than Cielo, just resistance. The way Frykowski, Folger and Sebring had reacted more than demonstrated that little was predictable but the aim was to show the others how to do it. Quite what he aimed to show them, given their showing the night before {they'd carried out the instructions Tex claimed he was given} remains a matter of debate !

Leno made a statement when talking to DeSantis that is VERY curious in my opinion, "I need to get out of LA, it's a matter of life and death, I'm asking for my life"

I don't find it particularly curious when one considers that the guy had just been rumbled to embezzling the amount he had and was looking at some serious disgrace and an imploding life, whatever te outcome.

Doug said...

but she showed another, more whacked out & stalkerish side later on with regard to Patti Tate/Alisa Statman and, their children (Patti's kids)

Just out of interest, where did that story come from and was it actually verified ?

It's also very interesting that Leno and Rosemary fought with Suzan about Joe Dorgan because he pretty much "evaporates" from the entire sphere of TLB and MF/Bikers

If few mums had argued with their grown up daughters over their choice of boyfriend throughout the 1960s, this might merit looking at. But it was relatively common and has become even more so.
To this day, I have not come across a single statement that could be verified or isn't some internet gossip that shows Joe Dorgan as a biker, let alone as one that hung anywhere near Spahn Ranch. Joe Dorgan has but one role to play in this whole saga ~ he's the guy that went with young Frank into the front room and found Leno dead and touched the phone. In a macabre way, it's him leaving Suzan in the kitchen that causes her to notice the red writing on the fridge. He disappears from TLB because, unlike Winifred Chapman, he's irrelevant to TLB beyond finding one body and going to the house of a neighbour to alert the police.

grimtraveller said...

beauders said...

Could Suzan LaBerge be the connection between Cielo, Waverly, and Spahn Ranch?

This is the connection between Cielo, Waverley and Spahn:

ATKINS: "I forget, I believe the next night, Charlie told me to get two changes of clothes, and a knife,we were going to do it again.......and we just drove around. We went over to Pacific Palisades, Pasadena, we drove around and stopped at two ‘houses, Charlie got out of the car, we drove around the block....And he was talking the whole time. I forget what he was telling us, he was just talking, to keep us so we wouldn’t be thinking about what we were doing. Stopped at one house, Charlie got out, we went around the block and Charlie came back. We picked up Charlie and he said, “Man, there were pictures of children in that house. I just couldn’t do that.” He said there may come a time when we we might have to kill some children but it would be in order to save the children that are coming with us. And so I accepted that and we drove asleep around. I fell asleep. I slept. I felt tired, thoroughly exhausted. I hadn’t slept, I just couldn’t sleep. And when I woke up we were parked and I looked around and I recognized the area as being the area where I had taken an acid trip with Charlie and the girls and a few people in the house...."

It seems pretty clear to me that after 4 attempts at a kill and not one materializing, that Charles Manson, denizen of supreme cool and always coming through for his family now felt the pressure. That's why he headed to Waverley. The LaBiancas weren't even the target because he didn't know anyone occupied that particular house. It was pure chance that he spotted the dog there in the yard of a house he thought of as empty and being an animal lover and curious at the light being on, went to investigate.
Suzan LaBerge had a nervous breakdown in the aftermath of the murders, which, at least for me, renders any involvement in the planning and desire for the murder of her mum null and void.
It's quite interesting how time after time, plausible rather than fanciful explanations get tossed in favour of intrigue. As a Christian, there's really nothing bizarre about Suzan coming out to bat for Tex in his 1990 parole hearing, especially when one takes into account the lead up to it. That so many people have so readily dismissed LaBerge's forgiveness of Tex says a heck of a lot about them.

beauders said...

Grim, I was asking that question in relation to Ed Sanders asking if Suzan had got her hair done by Sebring and in that case could Suzan LaBerge be the connection between Cielo, Waverly, and Cielo? The fact that Sanders did not continue with this inquiry in his books says he probably investigated it and didn't find anything. All we know for about Dorgan is he had a motorcycle. My brothers, sister, and I all had dirt bikes growing up as we lived in the country, we were not bikers. Even if Dorgan was in a motorcycle club that does not mean he was a Straight Satan. I think LaBerge was like a lot of young women going through fazes of liking bad boys. If they are lucky they outgrow it. It was originally Bill Nelson who started question Suzan LaBerge and her role in the murders, because she wanted nothing to do with that conman. Think of that LaBerge found Watson to be a better person than Nelson. The subject LaBerge comes up again in Alisa Statman's and Brie Tate's book. I see no reason for Statman and Tate to have a reason to lie. It appears that LaBerge was trying to get to Patti Tate, in Watson's defense, through her and Pattie Tate's kids, and that is the only problem I have with LaBerge. People do crazy things when their family members are murdered and I do not find LaBerge strange for defending Watson, somehow she forgave him. I'm sure she related to Watson as a Born Again Christian. She did not go to bat for the other murderers is a common criticism but the only other one religious was Atkins, who was an evangelical Catholic. There are big differences to these two approaches and maybe she just couldn't relate to her. Remember Atkins always wanted attention, she was a braggart, and a dumb ass. Watson tried to deflect attention and just wanted to be a seen as a Manson brainwash victim. They way they approached their public attention is opposite from each other. Atkins lied about what she did, she said she killed Tate when in reality she most likely held Tate down while Watson stabbed her. Maybe Atkins desire for all this attention turned LaBerge off to her. Atkins was the only Manson Family murderer who I think may have committed others crimes if released from prison, there was something wrong with Atkins long before she hooked up with Manson.

beauders said...

oops Spahn Ranch in the first sentence. Nelson also stalked LaBerge, i have a disc of him doing it.

Mon Durphy said...

Damn, where do you get this stuff, Aes-Nihil?

Mon Durphy said...

Why would he be afraid for his life over simply owing money to his and his mother's own company?

Mon Durphy said...

Otherwise good points Grim, that aside the bit about Patti's kids and Suzans kids playing together at Patti's house came from a conversation between Tex and Bruce Davis, "I may be out of here soon buddy, I've got my Ace in the hole Suzan working on it, her kids are playing with Patti Tate's kids as we speak"

Mon Durphy said...

Agreed 100 percent with you on this Grim

Mon Durphy said...

I'm guessing the phone call between Judy Hansen and Harold True regarding Suzan had Bills name all over it since you can hear her talking to someone in the backround during the call and alot of her questions started with "WE were wondering" not "I was wondering"

Doug said...

Off topic but...Erica Gavin posted a rare photo two says ago on FB (printed on a matchbook to hand out...must've been many more at one time) of her and Paul Fitzgerald taken during the time they began dating during the trial.

This has a bizarre "six degrees" with Gavin in Beyond the Valley of the Dolls, the women in BtVotD wearing the actual clothing worn by Sharon Tate at al in Valley of the Dolls, the bloodbath at the end of Beyond being influenced by TLB, Gavin having to deal with Squeaky crashing at her home...which made her uneasy...etc...

I can't repost it hear but, IF interested, check her FB page or Google it.

Just a curio...no big deal but interesting nonetheless

Doug said...

Her Instagram with photo

https://www.instagram.com/erica.gavin/p/BsJhskyFwvU/

beauders said...

Yes Nelson was working with Judy Hanson and was egging her on in the background during her interview with True. I knew Nelson and got a lot of stuff from him directly that is until I filed Federal Mail Fraud Charges against him. He was not happy and his wife made him stop dealing with Manson stuff for a while. Nelson was a piece of shit but I do believe he was possibly mentally ill.

Mon Durphy said...

Atkins problem was alcoholic parents and a mother who died early forcing her to take over the "womanly" duties of the house and if you believe her there was also some sexual abuse at the hands of one of her brothers

Dilligaf said...

Many people have had alcoholic parents, and many were molested, and still managed to not kill anyone, let alone become a criminal. SA owns what she became, and what she did...

William Weston said...

Grim said,
It seems pretty clear to me that after 4 attempts at a kill and not one materializing, that Charles Manson, denizen of supreme cool and always coming through for his family now felt the pressure. That's why he headed to Waverley.


According to Bugliosi, "Thus far, their wanderings appeared totally at random, Manson seemingly having no particular victims in mind, ... but after the sports car incident, Manson's directions became very specific" (p. 357). He directed Linda to their next stop, 3267 Waverly Drive, the home of the LaBiancas.

So Charlie and crew wander aimlessly around in a packed vehicle, for what must have been five to six hours. Then all of a sudden Charlie gets the inspiration to drive to the Waverly house.

The timing of their arrival at the LaBiancas was much too precise to be random. If Charlie and his crew arrived earlier, they would have found no one at home. If they had prolonged their ride any longer, Charlie's intrepid crew would have been ready to call it a night and go back to Spahn for some sleep.

Leno and Rosemary and their daughter Suzanne were at Lake Isabella, 150 miles from Los Angeles. They did not leave until 9 pm, and it was 1:00 in the morning when they dropped off Suzanne at her apartment. They then stopped at John Fokianos' news stand to get a newspaper. Fokianos did not remember the exact time they left, but it was between 1 am and 2 am, probably closer to 2 am. Rosemary and Leno had just put on their night clothes and had not gone to bed yet when Charlie walked in.

Charlie knew when the LaBiancas would arrive home, just as he knew that Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring would not be in Las Vegas the previous night. Such knowledge could only come from a covert surveillance team providing updates on both Sharon Tate and friends and the LaBiancas. The existence of a surveillance team is an important contribution to the Tate-LaBianca research from O'Neill's book.

Charlie probably got an update on when the LaBiancas would be home from a buddy at the house where Charlie got out of the car and had Linda drive around the block. He probably got a "go" signal near where the sports car incident occurred.

starviego said...


William Weston said...
"So Charlie and crew wander aimlessly around in a packed vehicle, for what must have been five to six hours."

Was it that long? Whatever it was, driving around for hours on the freeway was not conducive to the goal of finding suitable targets in rich neighborhoods. I have always felt that this was one of the mysterious events of TLB. Your interpretation makes as much sense as any other.

Mon Durphy said...

I really doubt they were driving around that long, in the first week of August it's still light out until well after 7pm almost 8pm, I doubt Charlie would want to be out with 6 people in Schwartzs old jalopy driving around especially with a gun in the car, my bet would be they were driving around at 10 pm

Mon Durphy said...

Driving around during daylight I should have said or maybe dusk

grimtraveller said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grimtraveller said...

Mon Durphy said...

Why would he be afraid for his life over simply owing money to his and his mother's own company?

Two things I'd say to that; firstly, it was a figure of speech, a bit like someone who quits a high pressured/powered job might say "I need to get my life back." Secondly, he didn't just owe money to his mum's and his company. He'd been systematically stealing it to fling on horses. That's a big deal to have to admit and come to terms with. It's not like having to own up to having snipped your mum's curtains while experimenting with scissors with a serated edge !

aside the bit about Patti's kids and Suzans kids playing together at Patti's house came from a conversation between Tex and Bruce Davis

And there just happened to be someone on hand to "hear" this "snippet" of "conversation."

Atkins problem was alcoholic parents and a mother who died early forcing her to take over the "womanly" duties of the house and if you believe her there was also some sexual abuse at the hands of one of her brothers

Often when this point is brought up {same with Manson's early years} people take it as some kind of justification for their future acts. But it really isn't.
The fact that others that passed through the same or similar and didn't end up as they did is really irrelevant because we aren't talking about others. There is a definite correlation between their early years and how that shaped the attitude they went on to house. Equally, Atkins and Manson are fully responsible for their actions. It's a tremendous paradox ~ but a very real one. The simple reality of life is that if you show someone at a young age that you don't care, that they are disposable and not worthy of love, nurture and effort, then that is what you are likely to imprint on their psyche. If there are enough people around to offset that, then maybe said individual won't see the world as a jungle in which only the fittest survive and anyone they consider as weaker or useful to them a legit target. But if they continually run into people {be they friends, family or authority} that confirm what they already suspect and have discovered about life, then the liklihood of a "not very nice" outcome increase. That doesn't mean that if they act on that thought that others have helped shape that they aren't responsible for their actions.


Driving around during daylight I should have said or maybe dusk

Atkins testified to the GJ that they left after dark, Juan Flynn testified that it was dark when he saw them leaving, John Swartz, the owner of the car they went in, says he heard the car start up, looked out of the windows and saw the tail lights, which indicates it was dark. Linda testified that they didn't finish eating at Spahn that night until after dark. I'd say it was pretty conclusive that they didn't leave until after dark.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Was it that long?

According to Emmons, Manson said they drove for "over 2 hours." Tex said about 3 hours in his 1st book. But he also said he was on acid and speed and didn't wear a watch so......5 or 6 hours seems to be a stretch and a half.
There was never any real concrete time offered by any of the women that have spoken about it. Just vague phrases like "We drove and drove and drove" and "We just started driving and I know we went to Pasadena," because this was a people that didn't measure time.

Whatever it was, driving around for hours on the freeway was not conducive to the goal of finding suitable targets in rich neighborhoods

But no one ever said that they just drove around for hours on the freeway. They drove all over the place.
Actually, I find it fits very aptly with Charlie and his penchant for improvisation and acting outside the box. But remember, he set the tone for that night. The object of the exercize was that he was going to show them how to do "it."

I have always felt that this was one of the mysterious events of TLB

I've long felt the opposite. The Family aren't the only murderers or would-be killers that have set out one night with the aim of killing. Some have succeeded and some haven't. For example, that's how the Yorkshire ripper, Peter Sutcliffe, got caught. Chance encounters have played a huge part in many murders.

Your interpretation makes as much sense as any other

It might do in the total absence of any information. But we actually have info from Atkins, Kasabian, Manson, Watson and Van Houten.

William Weston said...

Then all of a sudden Charlie gets the inspiration to drive to the Waverly house

I think it was less "inspiration" than pragmatism on the part of a person that had a reputation to uphold. I think he believed Harold True's former housemates were still occupying the house next door. I suspect they were the targets.

The timing of their arrival at the LaBiancas was much too precise to be random

I disagree. That's the whole point of the random element; things could go any which way. It has sometimes been said that Steve Parent was the poster child for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've long felt that title equally applies to the LaBiancas.

If Charlie and his crew arrived earlier, they would have found no one at home

Kind of like what happened at the church they stopped at ? Or the former True house ?

If they had prolonged their ride any longer, Charlie's intrepid crew would have been ready to call it a night and go back to Spahn for some sleep

Particularly with the previous night in mind and the knowledge that Tex & co had laid waste to 5 people in about 30~40 minutes, hence the pressure on Charlie to perform. Waverley was as random as all of their other attempts that night, with a very important caveat ~ the inhabitants of the former True house were known but not in {for they had long moved} and the LaBiancas were in but not known.

Charlie probably got an update on when the LaBiancas would be home from a buddy at the house where Charlie got out of the car and had Linda drive around the block

This of course, presupposes that the LaBiancas were being followed. From Lake Isabella. Interestingly, Tex says he also got out of the car with Charlie.

Rosemary and Leno had just put on their night clothes and had not gone to bed yet when Charlie walked in

Rosemary was in bed. Leno was reading his horse sheets and by Tex's and Manson's "Emmons" account had fallen asleep.

If they had prolonged their ride any longer, Charlie's intrepid crew would have been ready to call it a night and go back to Spahn for some sleep

That is plainly contradicted by the events at Ocean Front Walk.

William Weston said...

Sundown on August 8, 1969 was 7:45 pm. So if they left at 8:00 and if the LaBiancas got home and put on their night clothes around 2:00 am, that is six hours. It is possible that the killers left at 9:00 thus making the total amount of time five hours. But any time much later than 9:00 is unacceptable. Manson and Tex had to lie about the true amount of time in order to avoid questions of why they were in the car so long. They wanted the LaBianca hit to have the semblance of randomness in order to avoid the truth coming out that the LaBiancas were being targeted the whole time.

Mon Durphy said...

Yes that's what I was saying, in my second statemrnt I was cirrecting the fact that I didn't say "until after dark" when I said "I doubt Charlie would want to be driving around"

starviego said...

William Weston said...
"... the LaBiancas were being targeted the whole time."

Why were they being targeted?

William Weston said...

starviego said...
William Weston said...
"... the LaBiancas were being targeted the whole time."

Why were they being targeted?


Frank, Susan, and Joe Dorgan were the first ones to enter the Waverly house after the murders.

The connection of Joe Dorgan to the LaBianca's daughter Susan is important.

According to Adam Gorightly's book Shadow over Santa Susana page 114

" Susan Struthers(La Berge) was living with Joe Dorgan of the Straight Satans Biker Gang. Later Manson was asked by a BBC reporter if he knew Dorgan, to which Charlie replied "Sure I knew Joe Dorgan, he rode with us."

Given the fact that a lot of women gave Charlie money, and that he could even convince a follower (Cathy Gillies) to kill her grandmother to serve his needs, I believe that Manson stood to gain a lot of money if Rosemary and Leno were killed.

beauders said...

William it has never been proven Dorgan was a member of a bike club let alone the Straight Satan's. All anyone really knows was he had a motorcycle. If you have proof let us know.

William Weston said...

From Bill Nelson’s book Tex Watson: The Man, the Madness, the Manipulation:

“Susan, the daughter of Rosemary LaBianca. At the time of the murders, she was a rebellious youth. She was known to keep company with motorcycle members, some believe to be the same group that ran with the Manson Family. She lived with Joe Dorgan, her live-in lover rode with the Straight Satan’s club, a few doors down from Charlie Watson.”

According to Nelson, Struthers was the executor of her mother’s estate inheriting as much as $2 million.

Mon Durphy said...

Have to agree with beauders this has been gone over as nauseum over the years and there's just no proof that Dorgan was a Satan, no proof he knew Charlie or anyone at Spahn, there's a chance Tex lived near Suzan but in LA there are plenty of people that live right next to each other and never know, the closest Dorgan/Suzan/Satan thing I ever figured was the Satan's hung out in Griffith Park which was very close to both Waverly and Suzans place and Suzan and Joe probably hung out there too since it was a big hippie/ biker hangout, the problem with Bill Nelson is he would take minor coincidences and turn them into huge conspiracies, cops aren't as a group the sharpest tool in the shed but the first place homicide investigators look in murder cases is family and friends and who stands to gain the most financially

Mon Durphy said...

Also Brian Davis had a phone conversation with Dorgan a few years ago and Joe flat out denied being a Satan or being involved with any biker groups, if I remember correctly he also said that when Suzan got weird and started supporting Tex Watson that both him and Frank Jr stopped talking to her

grimtraveller said...

William Weston said...

Sundown on August 8, 1969 was 7:45 pm

And of course the good horse ranchers like John Swartz were fast asleep in bed !
In any event, the Farmer's almanac of that year tells us sunset was indeed 7.46pm on the nights of the murders.
But darkness fell at 9.20pm.

But any time much later than 9:00 is unacceptable

Well, it is if you're trying to shoehorn the events of the night into a conspiracy that doesn't in actual fact exist. Looked at from the perspective of someone that is determined to prove the unprovable, pretty much all the known and verified facts are unacceptable.

Manson and Tex had to lie about the true amount of time in order to avoid questions of why they were in the car so long

Except of course, that nothing of the kind would stop people asking questions.

Later Manson was asked by a BBC reporter if he knew Dorgan, to which Charlie replied "Sure I knew Joe Dorgan, he rode with us."

He also said at one point {I think it's in Shreck's book} "Sure I knew Sharon." He is also supposed to have said, both to one of the lawyers {as appears in Sanders' book} and to Nuel Emmons, that he'd been to Cielo in the aftermath of the murders. But then he told Rolling Stone and George Stimson that he hadn't. So basically what he said about Dorgan doesn't mean a thing. Unless one is desperate for it to.

Given the fact that a lot of women gave Charlie money, and that he could even convince a follower (Cathy Gillies) to kill her grandmother to serve his needs, I believe that Manson stood to gain a lot of money if Rosemary and Leno were killed

You do see the problem you have with both these lines of support that you use ? Cathy's gran wasn't murdered and Charlie didn't gain anything from the LaBianca estate. The Granny Myers story is interesting; as far as I know, the only place it appears is in "Helter Skelter." I have never come across anyone that has verified it, not Paul Watkins, not Tex, not any of the women that turned, not Leslie, not Pat, not Susan......

From Bill Nelson’s book Tex Watson: The Man, the Madness, the Manipulation:

“Susan, the daughter of Rosemary LaBianca. At the time of the murders, she was a rebellious youth. She was known to keep company with motorcycle members, some believe to be the same group that ran with the Manson Family. She lived with Joe Dorgan, her live-in lover rode with the Straight Satan’s club..."


Bill Nelson thought Bruce Davis was Zodiac. 'Nuff said.
Also, do you notice how his statement there goes from "some believe to be" to "rode with" with nothing to verify how one turns into the other.

Mon Durphy said...

the problem with Bill Nelson is he would take minor coincidences and turn them into huge conspiracies

Agreed. Half the time, it's debatable if they were even minor coincidences.

William Weston said...

Mon Durphy said...

the problem with Bill Nelson is he would take minor coincidences and turn them into huge conspiracies


What minor coincidences are you referring to that Nelson turned into huge conspiracies?

William Weston said...

Grim said...

Bill Nelson thought Bruce Davis was Zodiac. 'Nuff said.


Of course Bruce Davis was not the Zodiac. However, he might have served from time to time as a Zodiac doppelganger to confuse the police, just as John Frazier, alleged killer of the Ohta family, was a double - and patsy - for the Zodiac.

Mon Durphy said...

In an odd fact Dr Ohta was the eye doctor the TLB detectives consulted with on the eyeglasses found on the floor at Cielo

Mon Durphy said...

Way too many to list here, he drove people nuts with his stalking and relentless badgering, it got so bad with Stimson and Sandy Good that they dug up the info about Bill molesting two underage girls and put it on the internet, he was pretty much finished after that

Doug said...

JLF may have taken that "Zodiac Doppelganger" stuff too heart with his interesting choice of facial/hair looks worn by him during his own trial...kinda "split personality" and/or "two-faced" eh...

Doug said...

to heart, not too heart

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Kimchi,

If you're out there, please check your email.

Thanks,

LS