Friday, September 1, 2017

Follower: Manson threatened grisly death if she left cult

 



LOS ANGELES — A woman once under the spell of Charles Manson testified Thursday that the violent and manipulative cult leader threatened to have her die a painful death if she left the ranch where they lived.

Catherine Share told a Los Angeles Superior Court judge that Manson once severely beat her and got a male cult member to vow that if she ever fled the man would hunt her down and drag her back behind a car.

The unusual testimony nearly 50 years after Manson’s followers terrorized Los Angeles during two nights of bloody rampages that killed seven people, including pregnant actress Sharon Tate, was to support a parole bid by fellow “family” member Leslie Van Houten.

Van Houten’s lawyer wants to show a state parole board that his client was under the sway of the twisted leader and more likely to make bad choices at the age of 19.

“Some people could not leave. I was one of them that could not leave,” said Share, who said she later regretted enticing Van Houten to join the cult. “I don’t think (Van Houten) felt like she was free to leave.”

Share acknowledged in her testimony that she didn’t know for a fact that Van Houten had been prohibited from leaving the cult, or hadn’t actually left at some point. She also acknowledged that others had left the Manson clan without being harmed.

A recent change in California law enables those who committed crimes when they were younger than 23 to seek a hearing on the role their youth may have played. The issues can later be introduced at a parole hearing to evaluate whether a prisoner is fit for release.

“Everyone is confused about how could someone who grew up like she did end up there,” attorney Rich Pfeiffer said.

Van Houten, 68, and serving up to a life sentence for the deaths, did not attend the hearing in part because she recently broke her knee cap, Pfeiffer said.

Van Houten was 19 when she and fellow cult members stabbed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca to death in 1969. The killings took place a day after other so-called Manson family members murdered Tate, the wife of director Roman Polanski, and four others in crimes that shocked the world.

Share was not involved in the killings, but served prison time later for armed robberies. Police said she also was involved in a plot to break Manson and other family members out of prison, though Share denied that. She said the plan was to help a boyfriend’s brother get out of jail.

Last year, a parole panel recommended Van Houten be released after she had completed college degrees and been commended for her behavior as a model prisoner. But Gov. Jerry Brown denied her parole, saying she failed to explain how she transformed from an upstanding teen to a killer.

Pfeiffer asked Judge William Ryan to compel prosecutors to turn over decades-old recordings of a conversation between former cult member Charles “Tex” Watson and his attorney in the hopes they may benefit Van Houten and help secure her release.

Prosecutors, who have vigorously fought Van Houten’s release, objected to giving up the tapes. The judge began reading some 300 pages of transcripts of the recordings to see if there was information relevant to Van Houten’s case.

Ryan said there were at least eight references to Van Houten in the 85 pages he had a chance to read before the hearing.

Authorities had once asserted the tapes included evidence of other killings and their release could jeopardize those investigations, Pfeiffer said. But Ryan said a detective acknowledged during a meeting in his chambers that there are no active investigations related to them at this time.

Van Houten was the youngest Manson follower to take part in the killings after joining the cult in the 1960s.

During her parole hearing last year, she said the murders were the start of what Manson believed was a coming race war that he dubbed “Helter Skelter,” after a Beatles song, and that he had the group prepare to fight and learn to can food so they could go underground and live in a hole in the desert.

Van Houten’s parole hearing is scheduled Wednesday. She was convicted in 1978 of two counts of murder and conspiracy after an earlier conviction was overturned on appeal.

Manson, 82, and other followers involved in the killings are still jailed. Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel have each been denied parole multiple times, while fellow defendant Susan Atkins died in prison in 2009.

Family member Bruce Davis also was recommended for parole, but Brown blocked his release.

Debra Tate, the only surviving member of her family, attended the hearing as she’s done for decades at all Manson-related parole bids. Even though Van Houten’s case did not involve her sister’s killing, she said she was asked to also represent the LaBianca family.

She does not think Van Houten or any of the Manson cult should ever go free.

“It was particularly vicious,” Tate said outside court. “This was an act of domestic terrorism, in my opinion. And there was group collusion with a much larger agenda and for that reason I don’t think any of these people should be paroled.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/follower-manson-threatened-grisly-death-if-she-left-cult/2017/08/31/56c88820-8eb1-11e7-9c53-6a169beb0953_story.html?utm_term=.36420b1f35c1

52 comments:

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol more victim culture in 2017, i guess Charlies "spell" made her try to hold up a gun store, shoot at cops and then try to break out of prison

katie8753 said...

From cielodrive.com:

Aug. 31 – Judge William C. Ryan will need more time before deciding whether to order the Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office to turn over copies of the Tex tapes to Leslie Van Houten’s attorney Richard Pfeiffer.

At a hearing held today at the Clara Shortridge Foltz Criminal Justice Center, Ryan said he had only read about 85 pages of the transcript and that he will make a decision after he finishes it, possibly in the next few days.

katie8753 said...

I don't know how Gypsy's comments at that hearing are going to help Leslie. I don't recall Leslie ever saying that Charlie said he'd kill her if she left. Is she suddenly going to start saying that's how she felt?

That really goes against stuff she's been saying all these years, that she was anxious to prove herself to Charlie by going on the "kill trips".

Actually, Gypsy's side of the story is just that: one side of the story. Unless she's got others who will back her words up. Susan's right, she sure didn't act scared when she held up that gun store and shot at cops.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Two thoughts:

1) If I were in Leslie's shoes, I would have attended that hearing with my knee cap broken into 14 pieces. In fact, you could have thrown in a couple broken arms, and I STILL would have been there. It's just one fucking day. She's got the rest of her life to convalesce in the prison game room, playing checkers and chess. Evidently, she's not as sick of being in prison, as one would expect. Jeezus... if I had a one in a million chance at release, I'd show-up in a body cast... with bells on!

2) Even IF the judge finally decides to release the tapes, it will be very difficult for Pfeiffer to comb through ALL of that audio meticulously, before Leslie's parole hearing. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge drags his feet, until after Leslie's parole hearing has come and gone. Time is not on Leslie's side. It sucks to be an incarcerated piece of shit. Moral of the story-- stay out of prison.

Maybe Pfeiffer will find a way to postpone her September parole hearing...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sometimes I wonder if these criminals don't "bow out" of these hearings at "opportune times" intentionally because they don't want to be questioned.

Dilligaf?
Any thoughts?

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Van Houten, 68, and serving up to a life sentence for the deaths, did not attend the hearing in part because she recently broke her knee cap, Pfeiffer said."

IN PART??? LOL

I'd love to know what the other part was...

katie8753 said...

Good points Lynyrd! Susan showed up DYING in a hospital bed, riddled with cancer, paralyzed over most of her body and had her left leg amputated. But she managed to show up.

This must be some good game for Leslie. Her attorney probably told her she's got it "made in the shade" with this crap. Her not showing up would be a REAL negative reflection on the personal "change" that she's made during the years. "Second Verse...Same As The First".

It just sounds like yet another one of her RUSES to get out.

katie8753 said...

And Gypsy flew all the way there for Leslie, and Leslie didn't even show up. What a slap in the face! LOL.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

On a different note:
Can you imagine being LVH... attending that hearing... and seeing GYPSY walk through the door???... after all these years??

Damn... talk about a complete mind fuck!!!

You gotta wonder...
Would she want to hug her? Slap her across the face? Cry her eyes out?

Dilligaf said...

LS,

A couple of thoughts. We do not know much about the degree of injury LVH sustained to her knee, it has been reported a couple of different ways. We also do not know when it occurred, which could affect her ability to be ambulatory. California will make every reasonable effort to transport an inmate, even given an increased cost due to guards, medical care, etc. Her attorney could have also asked for a continuance if necessary but since LVH's presence was not needed for what was, in essence, a motion hearing, I don't read too much into it.

It is true however, that just about any inmate will jump at the chance to leave prison for a field trip, anything to break up the monotony.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Id be surprised if Gypsy would even recognize her, ive never seen one persons looks change so much over the course of a lifetime, Leslie looks like a completely different person every 5 years or so, its crazy

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I havent seen anything online about the injury, how did she sustaim it?

katie8753 said...

But Dill, if Leslie didn't need to be there, why was Gypsy there? Why was Debra Tate there? Didn't Leslie feel a compulsion to be there? I agree with Lynyrd. Even if she had to drag herself in by her hands (which of course she didn't) she should have at least shown up to show she was sincere. In these days, she could have skyped.

My opinion is that if a "lifer" was trying to get parole and there was even the slightest chance at getting it, she should make every effort to show up and show that she's sincere. Otherwise, she looks "inconvenienced" and insincere, or even like she's dodging questions. In fact, it looks likes she's dodging questions, when Gypsy shows up and says her life was threatened if she left.

If Leslie was questioned today if she received those threats, she would have to answer those questions, and she might not know how to answer those questions to benefit her case. That's why I think she didn't show, which doesn't speak well for her case.

katie8753 said...

Susan, LOL. Leslie would look like Gypsy's great grandma.

katie8753 said...

Dill, wouldn't Leslie's attorney have asked Gypsy to come to this hearing? Why not have Leslie there looking hangdog, pathetic and sad to emphasize the impact of her statement? Wouldn't that have more impact? I know someone with a kneecap injury can walk on crutches or even in a wheel chair.

katie8753 said...

Maybe Tex called her from his prison and said "Do Something"! HA HA.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Lol you know what i mean about Leslies looks though? Its really bizarre how a persons looks can change so much with no surgeries, enhancements, etc, just living life

katie8753 said...

Leslie probably paints herself to look pathetic in front of the parole board to get sympathy. I wouldn't put it past her.

She probably tells her PR staff "Give me that long gray haired, vacant stare, witch nosed wrinkled face look".

Marliese said...

SAG, Her looks changed "just living life"...IN PRISON. She was always a smoker, no idea if she finally quit, but the damage to her looks from years of smoking, along with institutional crap food, and no cosmetics or skin care for decades is aging. And last we saw of her at a parole hearing, her hair was awful looking, I don't mean the grayness of it...hair can be one of many clues to health of the body... and her thin, straggly hair last we saw of her didn't give off a picture of vibrant health. Also, evidently, she lost her natural teeth in the last few years and has poorly fitting dentures...very aging, same as Pat. From her appearances in the parole hearings every few years, her teeth were in disrepair for a long time. Maybe she has bone loss from osteoporosis...after all, she is almost 70, maybe she fell and cracked her knee..who knows...their medical records are private. She was a beautiful young girl, and life in prison has not been as nurturing for her looks as it has been for her education. Though I'd like to think she takes as good care of herself as she can...

Catherine Share is a lot older than Leslie, and last time we saw her...even tho it was several years ago, but considering the age difference between them...she looked great..good hair, nice makeup, clear skin, she looked like she takes care of herself...but she's not rotting away in prison, and she has resources...

Katie, remember when Leslie walked out of a parole hearing years ago...didn't want to face the families I think we thought at the time. Maybe it's something like that...maybe she just didn't want to see CS, but your comment about the difference between them being so apparent would have likely supported their point. Maybe it's more than her knee, maybe she's sick.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Im not talking so much about the aging, i understand some people age quicker than others, its hard to explain, to me its almost like she morphs into a completely different person every few years, you may need to take a look through pictures at varying times in her life

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
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Marliese said...

Katie...LOLL. She looks ancient. I have no idea but I think something kept her away...possibly an illness along with whatever happened to her knee. Whatever is going on, she probably can be cared for at the prison. Wouldn't it be in the news if she'd been taken to a hospital? But nowadays you have to be near dead to be admitted to a hospital, even if you're not in prison! Ha Ha.

Marliese said...

I don't need to take a look at Leslie Van Houten through the years, I've seen plenty, and many of us have dissected every thing about her that we can see, learn, research of her...from her appearance and demeanor to her behavior then and now, psych reports etc etc. I think she is the same spell casting character flawed narcissist she's always been...

katie8753 said...

Marliese I know prison's been hard on Leslie, but I think back to Susan Atkins and she seemed to get prettier every year, until of course she got sick.

But I digress. I wonder if her knee was even injured. I really think that lawyer didn't want her at that hearing if Gypsy was gonna talk about Charlie saying he was going to kill her, because Leslie would have made up new stories about Charlie, and then it would have snowballed back to the parole hearing, etc, etc.

I really think that Leslie's "non-appearance" at that hearing hurt her chances. That Judge is no dummy. He knows ALL the tricks.

Leslie is a lifer fighting for a chance to get out of prison. My opinion is that she should do anything she can to show a Judge that she's able and willing to talk until her teeth fall out to explain everything. But her "mouthpiece" probably decided it was better for her to "bite the bullet" and keep her trap shut.

What I don't understand is why Leslie's lawyer would have even paid Gypsy to come there and say that stuff if Leslie wasn't even going to show up.

What good does that even do?

Do they think some Judge is gonna sit and listen to that Ya-Hoo talk about Charlie threatening her life, and then admitting she didn't know if Charlie threatened Leslie's life or not? What good does that even do? We all know that Gypsy hates Charlie. It's like the pot calling the kettle black!

I mean, after Gypsy says Charlie tried to kill her and threatened her, she went on to commit armed robbery and tried to kill police officers. What does that say?

That lawyer would have been better off getting Babs Hoyt in there to say "that place was a shithole and I was scared for my life" because Babs never committed any crimes. But if he did try to contact Babs, she probably told him to kiss her grits because she would NEVER try to get Leslie out of prison.

This whole hearing was hyped up for a BIG NOTHING in my opinion. It solved NOTHING. The tapes are still not being released, no decision on anything, and as the libs would say, it's a Nothing Burger. LOL.

Dilligaf said...

Katie,

I am not saying that LVH shouldn't have been there, I am just saying that her presences was not required. Having Share there to give testimony simply was attempt at corroboration for the claim. It was also a PR attempt to show th media that even other Manson criminals believe she has done her time. Frankly, I am more concerned about the opinion of the victims, but since they cannot give theirs, we must speak for them. There would have been very little sympathy with LVH in a wheel chair, as this was not in the presence of a jury. As far as Tate, I give her credit for being there every step of the way

katie8753 said...

And BTW, I think Leslie looks older every single time we see her, and it's probably part of her M.O. She thinks old ladies get out quicker.

Remember, she tried to hook up with that young man on the jury years ago....

katie8753 said...

Thanks Dill! I agree! :)

katie8753 said...

I really don't know how those Tex Tapes are gonna help Leslie. Basically Tex is a big fat liar. He has lied so many times I can't count them. So anything he said on those tapes, if it benefits Leslie, the DA can always just go back to other lies and say "how do we know if this is the truth or just more hyped up lies"?

Tex has admitted that he lied many times to help himself look better. How does hours and hours of this guy talking help anybody?

katie8753 said...

Oh well, gotta work tomorrow. Night y'all!

cielodrivecom said...

The parole hearing will not be delayed and Leslie's attorney has no expectation of getting the tapes proir to it. If the Judge rules in favor of disclosure it will be stayed pending appeal, which the DA will do. Pfeiffer's hopes are that he will get the tapes in time to present them to the Governor for his review 120 days after the hearing. Or if later, for future hearings.

beauders said...

Katie for a second there I thought you had gone to Dallas and found Gypsy Share and interviewed her.

beauders said...

If only...

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

One reason the content of the tapes being kept hush hush in my opinion might be that it may show Charlie wasnt as in control as Bugliosi got people to believe, Texs reaction when Boyd told him Charlie had been arrested for the murders and was being painted as "cult leader" was "Charlie? Ha, no fucking way!" Tex was always back and forth from the ranch to his own scams and rip offs, Charlie said hed leave for a month and come back to the ranch with people after him asking him to hide him, ill gaurantee if you asked Susan, Pat, Linda and Leslie immediately after the murders who they were more afraid or "controlled" by it would be Tex

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Thanks Cielo-Drive for the information/update.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Wow...

So EVEN IF the judge rules in favor of releasing the tapes, the DA is going to immediately appeal the decision. LOL

Oh Brother... (sigh)...
=======================================================

This situation reminds me of a story:

Years ago, I had a buddy who was in the military (during peace time).

When I asked him what life was like in the military, he replied:
"It's all hurry-up and wait."

Evidently, the "higher-ups" would make the soldiers assemble quickly for some bullshit... and then, they'd make them wait in-line for 4 hours.

"Hurry-up and wait"
Sounds familiar...

TomG said...

My take is that we all do crazy things when we are young. That trifecta of intoxication, rebellion and opportunity. Hopefully, we will not be judged by a wrongful act or a season of misguidance. Hopefully, we will be remembered for who we were most of the time.

You can't punish anybody enough or hate anybody enough that will rewind the clock and take away what they did.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Hi Tom,

I agree, that every human being does really stupid shit when they're young.

And God forbid that any of us, would be forever defined by our stupidest moment.

I'm with you on those two counts.

But bear in mind... most people's "stupidest moment" falls well short of participation at a murder scene.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

I dont think murder falls under the "i was young, drunk and stupid" rule, you murder someone you forfeit your freedom forever IMO

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

Thanks Cielo! Beauders, LOL!

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Tom said:
"You can't punish anybody enough or hate anybody enough that will rewind the clock and take away what they did."

Oddly enough Tom, (or not so oddly), victim's rights advocates use that same sentiment as strong justification for Leslie's permanent incarceration. (i.e., "the victims will never get paroled from their graves". "Murderers can never change the past, or repay what they've taken", etc).

Doris Tate once asked;
"When does Sharon come up for parole?"

It's amazing how 2 groups can utilize the same sentiment to support completely opposing views.

But alas... we're back to politics. LOL

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Doris also said "Society cannot trust you among them" to Tex at that hearing and thats my reasoning in keeping these people locked up forever, forgiveness doesnt mean theyre allowed out to possibly murder again

Marliese said...

I agree with every word, Lynyrd, particularly your last sentence. In all the years of parole discussions for Leslie, it always, for me, comes back to murder...first degree murder, or felony murder which ever finally convicted her, is not a stupid mistake, it's not garden variety rebellion and careless choices. And I don't believe it's hate to expect there will be justice for the unspeakable suffering and loss endured by the victims and their families. It isnt hate that questions whether Leslie Van Houten should be paroled, or to believe she shouldn't be paroled.

And regarding murder...these were exceptionally brutal murders. And I have to ask at what point did LVH let something like this happen to her life? How and why did her life evolve to where she could find out about Cielo, and wish she'd been involved? How could she plead with her eyes to go the second night? How could she stroll into Waverly, help herself to the knife drawer, viciously assault Rosemary, till finally plunging a knife into that woman...16 times? Was it a transformation, or was she always capable of murder? Either way, not a misguided, mixed up teenager. This is life in prison horror. How did this happen to Leslie Van Houten?

And then there's the post murder Leslie Van Houten with no remorse whatsoever. Her attitude when she was first arrested...so cagey and full of tricky answers, all the way to months later, laughing in the courthouse of the trial.

Hi Katie, it's true, now that you mention it, LOL, Susan got prettier in prison, and LVH got not so pretty anymore. Maybe it's because prison was a step up for Susan? She was a skank...and I don't mean any ordinary skank... she was a leave a shit in the road filthy dirty girl. Even Charlie found her repulsive. Well Susan repented...I hope, and found someone to finally love and care for her...RIP Susan, you did your time.

katie8753 said...

Tom you only seem to show up when we're talking about horse teeth (I guess I can't call her that anymore, since she got those pop-in fake teeth that probably don't have that big horse overbite). BTW, California taxpayers paid for ALL of the dental work that these killers needed! Not to mention any other medical needs!

Do you feel the same way about Charlie, Tex, Bruce, Bobby & Pat????

katie8753 said...

Marliese I agree with everything you said. I've often wondered how Leslie could end up committing murder, given that she had such a middle class upbringing and being popular in high school.

Leslie is only 3 years older than I am, and there is NO WAY I would have (1) joined a hippy cult and (2) joined in on killing folks.

They try to say that Leslie was just an ordinary teenager, but she WASN'T There was something really wrong with Leslie way back then!

katie8753 said...

Susan I agree with you, what would the Tex tapes reveal?

I don't know if they would reveal that Tex was in charge, but I think it would be a continuance of Tex's psychotic rantings that he had with a psychiatrist, which sometimes he was lucid and sometimes he was a psychotic lunatic!

I've read thru that psychiatric interview, and it gets really old. I think that Tex is a great actor. And I think he was acting most of the time during these interviews. Which means, there's no telling what he told his attorney Boyd during those days.

Tex was protected by his family in Texas. I think his Uncle, cousins and certainly mama & daddy. I don't trust a word he said back then.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

Not so much that Tex was in charge but that Charlie didnt have the hold over people that Vince painted it

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marliese said...

It can't be denied that Charlue had a powerful presence in the lives these people...whether at the beach, the desert, Spain's Movie Ranch. And while Tex may have found it laughable to call Charlie a "cult leader" ...we have no idea his perception at that time of the phrase "cult leader." Some may associate cult leader with some maniacal religious sect . Whatever killer Tex thought a cult leader was, the evidence of Charlie's influence over those girls, men, killers is apparent in every aspect of their time together.

Marliese said...

hi Katie, No truer words...,! Tex is a great actor. If I had to guess, I'd say he's been acting his entire life...whether the devil doing the devil's business or a prison pastor, it's how he copes with and conceals who and what he really is...even from himself.

Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...

He may be the most sociopathic killer ever, at least other multiple murderers havent used the church and religuon as a means of profit and favor with parole boards, at least guys like Berkowitz admit they should never be released even though theyve supposedly found religion, Tex is ultimate evil scumbag with no conscious or soul

katie8753 said...

LOL.

And the nominations for best leading actor in a murderer category are:

Ted Bundy for his portrayal in "The Deliberate Stranger". Hitler in his performance in "The Perfect Race", and Charles Tex Watson in his brilliant portrayal of "I'm the Devil, and I'm here to do the Devil's Business".

And the winner is: Charles Tex Watson.

Accepting for Mr. Watson is his longtime love, Linda Kasabian.

Linda: Thanks to the academy for this award and I also want to thank all the movie makers who made me look like a young innocent girl who didn't know what she was doing, which allows me to keep selling drugs and stuff. THANKS!!