Thursday, June 18, 2015

Manson and Bugliosi had even more in common than you might think...

Ok, so it's the MailOnline US - news, sport, celebrity, science and health stories but what the hell.

 Click here for the link to the story.

Charles Manson prosecutor 'had secret love child with his mistress of 23 years'

Vincent Bugliosi passed away in a Los Angeles hospital on Saturday evening following a years-long battle with cancer, his family said He famously prosecuted Charles Manson and three of his cult followers for the horrific murders of actress Sharon Tate and six others in 1969 The attorney turned the trial - the longest and most expensive in LA history at the time - into a marathon showcase for the killers' bizarre lifestyles After the case, he made failed bids for DA and became a defense attorney but gained greatest success in writing a dozen books 'Helter Skelter' - about the Manson case - became one of the best-selling true crime books of all time

The man who successfully prosecuted cult leader Charles Manson died earlier this month leaving behind two children-or so that's what people thought. Vincent Bugliosi left behind his wife of 59 years, Gail and their two adult children, Vincent and Wendy. And on Tuesday a woman claiming to be Vincent Bugliosi's lover of 23 years, Lydia Alvarez, has stepped out of the woodwork to say the two of them had a secret child together named Nina. Bugliosi who wrote the book 'Helter Skelter,' also apparently has five grandchildren that until now were kept hush hush, reports The New York Post. 'I am looking for a PR agency to represent me in selling a story to a newspaper or magazine about the unknown personal life story of Vince Bugliosi,' Alvarez wrote in an email to several PR firms. Alvarez says she wants to write memoir called, 'My Helter Skelter Life with Vince Bugliosi,' but said she wanted to wait until after he died to go public with her story


MrPoirot said...

Bug must pay for prosecuting a major counter culture leader.

Francis said...

Assuming this is true, and I have no reason to believe it's not, ( I obviously have no idea but paternity is easy to prove/disprove these days so I think people tend to be more truthful about claims) it seems pretty tacky to suddenly want to publish her story when the man hasn't even been dead two weeks and only her side of the story will be heard since he is no longer here to speak for himself. I also think it's pretty tacky to put the words " Helter Skelter" in the title for a number of reasons. JMO of course. I wouldn't read the book anyway, I'm not really interested in the mans personal life. He's hardly the first famous person to have a love child and live an imperfect life. Maybe Arnie the Governator's maid will write a book next.

katie8753 said...

Hi Francis. I agree. Why start talking about this when the guy is barely cold? She says she was tired of her daughter being ignored. Well now, instead of being ignored, she's gonna be gawked at everywhere she goes by curiosity seekers because of the Manson association.

What people won't stoop to for some attention and money...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

You gotta wonder why she waited until now, to tell her story.
It seems to me, the story would have been more relevant, while the guy was still alive.

Be that as it may, I agree with Francis, the title is pretty tacky.

I'm not too interested in Bugliosi's personal life... I never have been.
Athough I must admit, I lost a lot of respect for the man, when he wrote "Divinity of Doubt".

I mean, who writes an entire book trying to disprove the existence of God?

He was a very effective lawyer, but on a personal level, it seems he may have been quite a douche.

MrPoirot said...
The Charleston shooter is an actor named Ed Chiarini. He played in this Seinfeld episode.

sunset77 said...

I just watched the Seinfeld clip, the actor does bear a resemblance to the Charleston shooter. I looked that shooter up last night, he was arrested in February for cocaine, methamphetamine, and LSD.

It seems I may have heard of a similar combination of drugs and then committing murder in order to start a race war somewhere before.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...


MrPoirot said...

There are similarities to other mass murders as well. 9 killed in Waco. 9 killed in Charleston. Don't these guys ever change the script?
Notice in the 3 shootings in SC. There is an escalation as if the desired result wasn't obtained so the next shooting was more violent.

Trooper shoots black man in Columbia, SC-WOUNDED.
City cop shoots black man in Charleston, SC-VICTIM DIES.
Evil white supremacist shoots up a Charleston, SC black church. 9 MURDERED.
Looks like they are looking for Ferguson results and weren't getting it so they carried out another shooting.

Personally I think these shootings are very weird because SC is a tiny state. More people live in Atlanta and Charlotte than all of SC yet only SC is having unprovoked shootings. The Charleston shooter looks to be a stereotype. Hes a white dude who likes confederate flags and lives Charleston where the civil war started.
Would you be suspicious if the next attacker is a towel headed muslim riding a bomb laden camel through Manhattan? You can lay it on a little to thick.

Look at Waco. You have the Branch Davidian massacre. Then this year we have another Waco massacre.

It looks like these bizzare events tend to happen in the same tiny out of the way places in pairs.

Last year there were two mass shootings by lone gunmen Both gunmen were the children of Hollywood elites.

These shootings are coming in groups. They lack any aspect of statistical randomness. Ex: 9 in Waco and 9 in Charleston. 3 shootings of Blacks in tiny SC just so far this year. Does that look random or organized?

The president comes on tv saying he is having to announce too many mass murders. Yea we thought that seemed a bit funny too. Even the president thinks something statistically weird is going on.
The Waco biker massacre has 9 victims. Anybody remember any biker gangs having massacres ever before? Most biker gangs are extremely racist yet Waco was a multicultural massacre(whites, blacks, Hispanics). Who wrote that script?
The Charleston shooter tells a witness at the church "I'm sorry I have to do this". Oh? You HAVE to do it do you? Who is making you do this? Who told you to do this? Who were you working for?

All of these mass shootings and massacres appear to have a contrived aspect about them.

MrPoirot said...

False Flag events don't mean there was no shooting although sometimes it can mean that. False Flag can mean the shooter was under the manipulation or direction of a third party. False Flag events are not new nor unique to America. However America has ben caught committing false flag incidents. For example the Gulf of Tonkin incident that started the US military invasion of Viet Nam under LBJ.
Another false flag event started the main breakout of military confrontation in WW2 when Germany made the false claim that the Polish military attacked German troops.

There are various styles of false flag events but the most widely known is "The Manchurian Candidate" style where covert government entities program an individual to assassinate a political figurehead.

The Manson TLB murders were false flag events. The Family copied the clues from the Hinman murder at Cielo and Waverly in order to make police think that somebody beside Beausoleil commited those murders thus resulting in the release of Beausoleil. The TLB murders were also false flg because they were designed to make the public think Blacks were indiscriminately murdering whites in their homes.

We have a false flag event in Washington right now where a white chick passed herself off as black. In her past she committed other false flag events. She reported to police that she was receiving racist hate mail in her post office box yet the envelopes had no post marks and she had the only key to the PO box.

MrPoirot said...

The murder by Susan Smith of her two boys was not a false flag. Though she blamed the murders on a fictional black man she probably had no intention of damaging the black race. She just wanted to get off the charges. If Susan Smith had wanted to damage the economic and political fortunes of blacks by murdering her two sons then yes that would have been a false flag event. Framing another person for your crime is not an example of a false flag.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, I think the shooter's name is Dylann Roof.

MrPoirot said...

Even the shooter's name is weird: Dylan Storm Roof. It sounds like a military acronym for a secret operation. How many people have names like that? Do you know anybody named Tomm Aluminum Siding?
The first guy police arrested at the church shooting was a photographer. Why? Were police afraid he'd photograph flaws in the crime scene?
Look also at where the arrest of Mr Storm Roof was made. It was made just across the border in NC which puts the killer under the total control and jurisdiction of federal authorities because he crossed state lines.
I've already read two stories today about clais the shooter confessed and wanted to start a race war ala' Charlie Manson. OO-EE-00. Who wrote that script? Hell it worked before let's tell the public that again.
How the hell did the shooter get out of Charleston and get all the way to NC. There's only one freeway out of Charleston. It sits out on a long peninsula.
Look at the cars the Sandy Hook and Charleston shooters drove. Both were black sedans. Wouldn't a Southern redneck be driving a pickup truck?

MrPoirot said...

About the killer's first name: Dylann. Why two N's? The second N stands for Nobody gonna find out who dis dude's real name is. I live in SC and I know for damn sure we don't name guys Storm. That's a girl's name. We don't use stupid names like Dylann. We name our boys William Robert(Billy Bob) or Robert Joseph(Bobby Joe)And a bit more about Rednecks. Is a redneck gonna throw a deer carcass in the trunk of his sedan or in the bed of his pickup? Who buys lots of black sedans? The government; that's who.
And what's this crap about the shooter having a flag of Rhodesia and South Africa? I lived in Charleston 5 years and there probably ain't a single redneck there who ever heard of either place.
And how long is it going to be before we here the cops mention the KKK? Let me tell you something about the KKK. I've lived in SC 58 years and I've never met anyone in the KKK. I've known several guys in the ACLU but not a single KKK member. In fact I know the president of the SC chapter of the ACLO. He's a member of the gun club I'm in. I assume he's a plant. Sometimes I speak Russian phrases to him to see if he understands them. He hasn't slipped up yet.
And what's this shit about the killer getting a gun for his 21st birthday? Rednecks already own 4 or 5 guns when their in elementary school. By the time a redneck is 21 he probably has no more room in his closet for another gun.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Donald Trump is running for President.

katie8753 said...

Lynyrd, I'm voting for Trump. He promised to make all my wildest dreams come true.

Mr. P, does your friend wear drab clothing, read "The Daily Worker" and have pamphlets in his car? If yes, then he's a commie.

MrPoirot said...

Well he's a democrat. He teaches a concealed carry class and is the gun club's liazon to the state house where he supposedly monitors gun laws and talks to state representatives. He is also a phd. I'm absolutely positive he is a plant.
What would you think of a pro gun democrat who runs the state ACLU chapter? Most organizations like gun clubs have baby sitters. The internet is full of baby sitters as well.

MrPoirot said...

Gun clubs really are not a hot bed of illegal activity. All of the members are probably free of criminal activity on their record. Nearly all of them grew up in two parent homes where Dad took his boys hunting. They have a positive impression of guns.
For instance to me when I hear the word "gun" I do not have a mental picture of a gun flash in my mind. The word "gun" to me creates images of my Dad, two uncles and several cousins and friends out in a corn field during September dove season. There is fried chicken, cole slaw and ice tea being passed around. Several radios are broadcasting college football games. To me guns are just a small part of something much bigger than myself or guns themselves. Guns are a Southern family tradition.

MrPoirot said...

9 killed Waco.
9 killed Charleston.
Revelations 9
Number 9
Number 9
Number 9

katie8753 said...

918 killed at Jonestown.
4 killed at Kent State
14 killed at UT in 1966
32 killed at Virginia Tech
2977 killed on 9/11
420,000 Americans killed in WW II
58,220 Americans killed in Vietnam

Mr. P, are you blaming this latest killing on Helter Skelter? Because I guess the guy got mixed up on starting a race war. He was supposed to kill white piggies and blame it on the blacks. He got it backward.

katie8753 said...

They should take this guy, whatever his stupid name is, and draw and quarter him. Instead of using horses, they should use Ford F-550's, without tailgates. That'll teach him.

MrPoirot said...

Karie Daily Mail said Mr Storm Roof confessed and claimed he planned to start a race war.

MrPoirot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MrPoirot said...

9 dead

starship said...

Lotsapoppa would have made 10. Sometimes you get lucky.

MrPoirot said...

You mean like in Charleston where the killer let thee tenth one live saying tell the world what happened? Is that luck or was Mr Storm Roof just following the script?

katie8753 said...

Well I guess we could add Zero, Pugh & the Willets to the death list.

MrPoirot said...

No you cant because Charlie had nothing to do with those. Zero was most likely an accident from playing with a gun. Willets were murdered long after Cielo by the criminal gang they ran with.

MrPoirot said...

Pugh was suicide. His father was a Dr who flew to England and checked the autopsy.
His Dad would have spotted it if Pugh was murdered. The Dad didn't fly to England to be fooled and he didn't go back a second time.

MrPoirot said...

This weeks mass shooting was brought to you by the number 9.

louis365 said...

MrPoirot said...

"Zero was most likely an accident"

Really Mr. P.?
Christopher Jesus died with members of The Manson Family present, but you just think it was an accident. Incredulous.

MrPoirot said...

Louis, police said it was not murder. Everyone stayed at the Mark Ross house and waited after the cops were called and did not flee. If it were a murder wouldn't Family members have fled? Even Bruce Davis was there when police arrived to investigate Zero's death. No one present has changed their story to say that Bruce was the killer even after 45 years.
So you think Bruce murdered Zero and waited for cops to arrive? Leslie Van Houten is the source of the incorrect rumor that Bruce killed Zero yet Leslie was not there when Zero died. You are basing your guess on the most unreliable source of all: the witness who was not there.
Zero either deliberately or stupidly pointed a loaded gun at his head and blew his brains out. There was no evidence it was suicide. No one present claimed it was suicide. There was a chick in bed with him who saw the death occur yet you discount her story and believe Leslie?
The death of Zero was not murder nor was it a deliberate suicide. He most likely just effed up and wrongly assumed the gun was not loaded. Witness statements corroborate that.
Louis you have no evidence Zero was murdered other than a woman's claim who wasn't there. If you took your charges to court in front of a jury you'd lose that case Louis. No juror would consider Leslie's claim was even worthy of their consideration. Jurors hate witnesses who weren't present. They like witnesses who were there.
The fact that the gun still had 5 bullets left in it points to accident not murder.
The fact that there were no fingerprints on is not proof of anything either way. No evidence is not evidence.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, first of all the odds that Pugh killed himself are about 1 out of 1000. Who writes backward stuff on the mirror and slices cuts into their own throat? Can you name one other suicide victim who slashed his throat twice? His body was blocking the door. Who does that?

As far as Zero goes, Danny DeCarlo thought it was odd that Zero was "suddenly" dead too, and why were there no prints on the gun? Who wiped them off? Zero's prints should have been all over that gun. The story I heard was that Zero found that gun and decided there was only one shell in the gun, when actually the gun was fully loaded.

I have a gun and I can tell by just looking at it that's it's fully loaded. How would Zero think it only had one bullet?

Both of these deaths were murders, in my opinion.

And the Willets weren't killed by Manson, but by his mindless followers, Brenda & Squeaky.

katie8753 said...

Hey Grim, since you're an Englishman, and probably know exactly where Joel was found, what are your thoughts on this? Was this a suicide or possibly a murder? Just your thoughts...Thanks!

MrPoirot said...

Blogger katie8753 said...
Mr. P, first of all the odds that Pugh killed himself are about 1 out of 1000. Who writes backward stuff on the mirror and slices cuts into their own throat? Can you name one other suicide victim who slashed his throat twice?

Katie the multiple cuts are called "hesitation marks" and are commonly found on suicide victims.

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, his throat was cut twice. Not hesitation marks, his throat was CUT. His wrists were cut. He was lying naked in front of the door, except for a sheet across his lower body. He died in wake of the Susan Atkins' Grand Jury testimony on December 1st.

He dated Sandra Good. He had a baby with her. Don't you think it's a little ironic that he suddenly "killed himself" around this time??

VB stated in his book that he was on the first floor, and the windows were never checked for fingerprints....VB thought it was possibly a murder.

MrPoirot said...

Katie the multiple cuts on wrists are seen on suicide victims. Many people who survived suicide attempts have multiple scars on both their wrists.

Pugh was a suicide. His father was a Dr and knew the signs of suicide. Pughs father was satisfied his son killed himself

katie8753 said...

Mr. P, I'm pointing out the TWO cuts to his throat. I know his father was a doctor. I know exactly what happened. His father probably wanted it to end. His son was involved with the Manson family. He couldn't take that reality. It hit him all at the same time. To have his son involved with that skank Sandra Good probably made him shut down. It would make anyone shut down at the time.

In December of 1969, we finally found out who killed all those people. I remember that time. It was nauseating and revolting. It made you want to bend over and throw up. To think that these young kids could have been responsible for horrific murder was unthinkable. I remember seeing those pics of Pat, Tex & Leslie in the papers, and I wanted to throw up.

But it was the truth. Bruce Davis was probably in England in December of 1969, due to Charlie ordering him to be there for Scientology. Charlie probably ordered his killing because maybe Joel knew more than he should. Charlie panicked in December of 1969 because Susan gave her testimony, and included him in the killings.

I think Joel was murdered. Sandy took on his name and named her kid after him.

I'm sure that Joel's Dad just wanted to sweep all of this under the carpet. He was probably ashamed that his son had anything to do with those Manson skanks.

I would be.

MrPoirot said...

Katie it was Bill Nelson who murdered Pugh.

katie8753 said...


Mrstormsurge said...

Katie the multiple cuts on wrists are seen on suicide victims. Many people who survived suicide attempts have multiple scars on both their wrists.

Possible. There is also a range of suicidal attempts from "gestures" unlikely to result in death to no-way-they-could've-been saved acts. Sometimes people cut, including their wrists, not so much to end their life, but to accomplish other things such garner attention, distract oneself mentally from pain, make oneself feel something, anything. One particular diagnosis that could do this is people with borderline personality disorder although you'd never diagnose with so little information on a person nor without interviewing them.

katie8753 said...

Thanks Stormy, but I'm talking about the cuts on the throat. 2 big cuts on the throat. I've never heard of anyone committing suicide by cutting their own throat.

The Manson family had a penchant for knives and cutting. I find it so odd that Joel "killed himself" on the same day that Susan's Grand Jury Testimony was coming out.

I find that very odd.....

MrPoirot said...

Pugh's Dad was a Dr and would have spotted the cuts on his sons neck and known instantly if they were hesitation marks or signs of murder. If there were two fatal cuts on his son's neck he would have known it was murder. Pugh's Dad agreed with the police that his son died of self inflicted wounds. There were NOT two fatal throat slashes.
OK people let's move on. Nothing to see here.

Unknown said...

Just google people committing suicide by cutting their own throats or stabbing themselves repeatedly in the chest even. It happens way more often than you think and there is a lot of information out there about it.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

"Hey Grim, since you're an Englishman, and probably know exactly where Joel was found, what are your thoughts on this? Was this a suicide or possibly a murder? Just your thoughts..."

Hiya Katie, sorry for the late reply but I've literally just seen this.
I do believe it was a suicide. According to Simon wells at this site[] Pugh had nothing to do with the family. He reckons he had never even met Charles Manson. Apparently, it was Sandy moving off with the Manson troupe that ended their decaying relationship once and for all.
His Dad had struggled with depression and after taking acid, the same thing happened to Joel. I'd read that link, it's a really good article.
I can understand why it was thought that there might be some family foul play though. On the day he was found dead, Susan Atkins had testified before the grand jury. The significance of this is that it was now apparent to the Californian authorities that this strange hippie looking troupe could be responsible for some horrendous murders. There was talk of this cowboy cut up in 9 pieces, one guy already being tried for the murder of this musician was one of the family, some guy told the police he'd seen this Charlie shoot someone in the desert, Susan told Virginia Graham there were 11 murders that would never be solved and that there were "more and more before...." as well as three out in the desert, Zero had only the week before been found dead with family members with all this in mind, when it was discovered that a]Joel Pugh had been involved with Sandy and b]Bruce Davis had been to England during 1969, it's forgivable and understandable that Vincent Bugliosi had suspicions.
As I stated in a different thread though, this is one of those aspects of the story that Bugliosi got way wrong. While he never actively accused Bruce of murder, the implication is definitely there that Pugh was done away with by the Manson family. He quotes a phrase from a friend in a letter saying something like "I would not want what happened to Joel to happen to me" to add weight to the supposition that Pugh was murdered. But Simon Wells in his article shows that the statement is misquoted and taken way out of context ~ the statement is about going too far into the mind with acid that one ends up killing oneself, because the writer had had suicidal thoughts after acid.
The Talgarth hotel is on a road that I go down quite a lot when I have deliveries in Hammersmith; unusually for the central part of London, it's a 6 lane road {3 each way, the Talgarth Road, part of the A4 ~ if you keep on it, you hit Heathrow, end up in Bristol, then Wales} and it's one of those roads where the parking spaces are on the pavement; you can't stop on the road itself. You either fly happily down it....or get stuck in crawling, sprawling traffic jams.

grimtraveller said...

katie8753 said...

"Who writes backward stuff on the mirror ? His body was blocking the door. Who does that?"

Apparently, he was pretty good at writing backwards and used to entertain the hotel manager's son with it. It was on mirrors so the kid could see what the words looked like the right way round.
As for the body blocking the door, well, three months ago my elderly Mother in law had a fall in her room and fell across the doorway and couldn't get up or move away. She could barely breathe. My wife's brother thought something was up when she didn't answer his call and tried to open the door but couldn't because she was blocking the door with her body. It took ages with some serious pushing to move her and she ended up in hospital for almost a month.

katie8753 said...

"As far as Zero goes, Danny DeCarlo thought it was odd that Zero was 'suddenly' dead too"

True. I think by November '69, it was beginning to dawn on Danny just what an escape he'd had. He never took the revolutionary and killing talk seriously then Bobby tells him he's killed Gary, then he hears about Shorty, then suddenly he's questioned about TLB and told about Zero. All the talk at the ranch of love and sex, then inexplicably all these deaths. It was odd.
Zero's death will always be a mystery but only because of the family connection.

katie8753 said...
"He dated Sandra Good. He had a baby with her"

They dated for quite a while. But there was no baby. Sandy didn't start giving birth until she was in the family.

katie8753 said...

"Sandy took on his name and named her kid after him"

Everyone in the family used a whole load of aliases {the one that cracks me up was Ima Fibbin !} to keep the various law enforcement agencies off their trails. Makes sense that Sandy would call herself Sandra Collins Pugh. She used the name Pugh for her baby to prevent him being taken into care. Straight society was their nemesis, lies were their currency.

katie8753 said...

"The Manson family had a penchant for knives and cutting. I find it so odd that Joel "killed himself" on the same day that Susan's Grand Jury Testimony was coming out."

There are a number of coincidences in the entire story that boggle the mind at times like Ronald Hughes dying or Paul Watkins nearly being burned to death in his camper or Charlie ending up walking past Lotsapoppa in the same jail after having presumed him dead for the previous 9 or so months. It's understandable that at some early points in the investigations that the possibility of foul play would come up. After all, two days after Tate, LASO gave LAPD information that could have broken the case there and then. The Tate detectives poo~pooed it when they were told about these strange hippies whose leader Charlie had convinced them he was Christ. 3 months later, the LaBianca detectives ran with it and the case broke. After that, the authorities never again ignored any family connected tale. As we see with Joel Pugh, indeed, they went to the other extreme and suddenly, the family were thought responsible for everything.