Wednesday, February 27, 2013

CRUNCH TIME!

I'm viewing this Davis situation, as a bonafide landmark decision.  It might not be Roe v. Wade caliber... but it's truly significant, in terms of the TLB case specifically.

Beyond this case specifically, Brown's decision will speak volumes regarding this nation's outlook on justice.  As a society, do we stress restitution or rehabilitation?

If Governor Brown approves Davis, the other Manson folks (Leslie, et,al) are one step closer to the door.  There's no other way to slice that pie... and Debra Tate knows that.

If Governor Brown denies Davis... it will send a strong message, that these folks will likely never be paroled.

This decision is truly, one of the most significant "current day" situations related to this (40+ year-old) case.  One might even say, that this decision is the most significant legal situation, since the results of the original trial(s).

22 comments:

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

With one day left in February... it's down to "crunch time"!

Chris1967 said...

I agree, this is almost as important as the original verdicts 40+ years ago..... some may say im too light on punishment but I think forty years for what bruce did is enough.... let the old guy out and give him a chance to hear some music and go to the desert or the forest and see natures beauty before he dies.... he is not gona get out and restart the Manson family....all he wants is to have his last days in peace, true he didnt offer that to others but we would be no better than him if he's denied TWICE> This is not Charlie Manson... This is Bruce Davis, he is remorseful, old, and I feel forty years for what he did is enough.... let the guy get close to God and nature and live his remaining years in peace.... btw Squecky has been fine since her release. If she is doing fine I feel Bruce will too, just like Clem.... if Manson wasnt tagged on thier backs they would have been out along time ago.... cept for Clem, that guy just worked the system hardcore lolsz. - Chris1967

Brian Davis said...

Rehabilitation or restitution. Well, said Lynyrd. That is what it boils down to.

Personally, I think if you go so far as take someone's life, crimes against children and rape then it's restitution. You pay in full.

The issue here, imo, is if we (U.S.)ultimately gave Davis life with possiblilty of parole and Davis did all required to qualify for parole then I see no alternative other than Davis should be released which makes me angry at the lawmakers because it should've been life without parole and we wouldn't even be here.

But it is what it is and we are where we are. Two days away from another Manson Family murderer with a realistic chance of getting released.

starship said...

Possible action today?

Brian Davis said...

Yes, possibbly. I mean, Brown could issue a decision a day or two early, I would think.

I'm checking every hour, LOL !

sunset77 said...

A couple things come to mind here for me. First, CA is the only state I know of that the governor has to approve decisions made by the parole board. I'm not aware of the technicalities involved, but I suppose it's possible that the governor would have 15 or more parole decisions to make every month. I doubt if the governor has time to review in detail every one, these decisions may be left to staff.

Secondly, the closer this gets to the absolute "deadline" for a decision, it reminds me of the Grogan release, where Grogan was released like a week or two before the public was even made aware. I suppose it's possible Davis is already on the street, and the public and the media haven't even been informed yet.

MrPoirot said...

I have just heard through a very reliable source that Bruce Davis was released late Sunday afternoon and has chosen to reside in Roanoke, Virginia.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

As I understand it, the governor has four options.

#1) He can approve the board's decision

#2) He can deny (veto) the board's decision

#3) He can "amend" the board's decision. (The ramifications of this option are beyond my legal expertise) LOL

#4) He can ignore the situation entirely, in which case, the board's decision will stand.

With the passage of time, I'm starting wonder if Brown may (in fact) exercise option #4.

Think about it:
Brown could simply ignore the situation entirely... and "let nature take it's course".
After a couple weeks of uncomfortable outcry, backlash and murmurings... he's off the hook.

This is essentially what Sunset is saying.
I don't have a crystal ball... but bear in mind... option #4 is a viable option, which cannot be ruled-out.

We'll see very soon...

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

My problem with our justice system (if, you can call it a problem), is the immense disparity of punishment administered for similar crimes.

Can we all agree, that Davis would have been released years ago, if he murdered an unknown gas station attendant and cashier, in Butt Lick South Dakota?

Picture it:
Davis kills a black gas station attendant and his cashier wife... steals $60 out of their till... and gets caught 15 miles down the road.

Does anyone honestly believe, that he'd still be in jail today? Really?

That's my major "beef" with our system.

If you're gonna be tough on crime, that's fine... be tough on everyone.
If you're gonna be lenient on crime, that's fine... be lenient on everyone.

Davis is still in prison toady, because his name is connected to "Charles Manson"... but moreover, because a Hollywood actress... a coffee heiress... and a "hairdresser to the stars" (etc), were all murdered at Cielo Drive.

Some "lives" are simply more valuable than others in our society.
I don't like that system of thought... or, that value system.
The man who kills an unknown black gas station attendant and cashier in South Dakota, should be subject to the same punishment as the Actress-murderer in Hollywood (and vice-versa).
The exact same.

Sunset77 stated it well, on a previous thread.

Sunset said:
"The inherent "unfairness" of the system is one of the reasons I started looking up the Manson case in the first place.

Robert Anderson committed his crime in 1965 and received a death sentence. By 1976 he was released from prison. Charles Watson was involved in the brutal murder of a number of people, his death sentence was "commuted" and he still sits in prison to this day. Other people are in fact executed for similar crimes."


Well said...

I say... Fry'em All, and let God sort'em out! LOLOL
(Just kidding! LOL)

Brian Davis said...

Mr.P ! HAHAHAHAHAH ! "..to Roanoke,VA". That was good !

It really would cause "helter skelter" in this little city if he came here, hahahahaha !

__________________________________

Assuming the Gov's office or Gov Brown have not heard those Watson tapes, I'm committed to thinking Davis stays in only due to the pending Watson tapes.

There is the possibilty that Tex implicates Bruce in other murders on those tapes.

Since the tapes are still up in the air I don't think Gov. Brown will take that risk. Imo, Bruce Davis stays in.


If the tapes have already been heard by Gov Brown or staff and Davis isnt implicated then I would tend to think the Gov lets him out.

Beckman says it is the Gov. staff that decides. But maybe the Gov actually reviews this one based on the notoriety.

But, I am wondering, even though the tapes are frozen, could the Gov. office or Brown have already heard the tapes for the purpose of the Davis parole decision ?

matt prokes said...

The Guy did His time.
If the Court says He can get out of jail than so be it.
If He was someone else he'd have gotten out a long time ago.

Leigh said...

I'm not convinced his parole, if it goes through, will have much significance for the chances of the others. It might, but it might be overstated. Grogan's didn't impact any of them. The adamant refusal to let Atkins out, even on her deathbed, is more significant to me. Tex is going nowhere, ever, and I think the same is true for Krenwinkel. Beausoleil would have more of a chance if he wasn't so accustomed to shooting himself in the foot. Van Houten probably has the best chance of anyone (in my admittedly subjective view), but I'm not particularly optimistic about her chances either. "Tate-LaBianca" is the shorthand, after "Manson", that everyone associates with these events, whether they know much about the cases or not. "Tate-LaBianca" continues to be the stuff of nightmares in the broader public imagination. Her association with LaBianca will probably continue to ensure that she receives the kind of attention and scrutiny from the public and mass media that someone like Davis was able to more or less elude throughout his incarceration.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leigh said:
"I'm not convinced his parole, if it goes through, will have much significance for the chances of the others. It might, but it might be overstated".

It wasn't overstated here.

I said (and I quote), that Davis' release would place them "one step closer to the door".
One step.

That's not to say, that the prison doors would suddenly fly open.

I also believe, that Manson's death would place them one step closer to the door, as well.
(In fact, if Manson had croaked 15 years ago, it may have equated to two steps).

I also believe, that Debra Tate's untimely death, would put them one step closer to the door, as well.

Etc, etc.

These folks are obviously several steps, from the door.

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Leigh said:
"The adamant refusal to let Atkins out, even on her deathbed, is more significant to me".

I disagree.

The main reason for my disagreement:

I never believed for a single moment, that Atkins would ever be released.
The result of that situation was a forgone conclusion.

She applied for a compassionate release, and the authorities were forced to address it.
The media of course, jumped all over it.
It was all wonderful drama, but little else.

The difference here, is that Davis has a legitimate chance.

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Leigh said:

"Tex is going nowhere, ever, and I think the same is true for Krenwinkel".

I tend to agree with you here.

Tex, forget about it.
That guy's not going anywhere... and rightfully so.

As for Pat...
Again... I agree with you, that the gravity of her crimes are just too significant.

But, there are several folks who would disagree.
You'd be astounded at the number of well-respected bloggers who support Pat's release.

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Leigh said:
"Beausoleil would have more of a chance if he wasn't so accustomed to shooting himself in the foot".

Beausoleil damages his chances, by continually changing his story.

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Leigh said:
"Van Houten probably has the best chance of anyone (in my admittedly subjective view), but I'm not particularly optimistic about her chances either".

I firmly believe that Leslie has the best chances, as well.

My prediction:

If Manson croaks soon, and Leslie lives to a very ripe old age... they'll eventually let her out.
It won't be soon though.

They'll wait until she's 90 years old, with one marble left rolling around in her head, and they'll release her... especially if Manson is long gone.

If Manson keeps kicking, and Leslie dies young... it won't happen.

Leigh said...

Lynyrd: "It wasn't overstated here.

I said (and I quote), that Davis' release would place them "one step closer to the door".
One step."

I understand; I just think there has been a general perception, be it in comments on news stories or in the TLB blogosphere more specifically, that one getting out after all this time bodes well for most/all of the others, and I'm not convinced of that.

Leigh said...

Leigh said:
"The adamant refusal to let Atkins out, even on her deathbed, is more significant to me".

Lynryd: I disagree.

The main reason for my disagreement:

I never believed for a single moment, that Atkins would ever be released.
The result of that situation was a forgone conclusion.

She applied for a compassionate release, and the authorities were forced to address it.
The media of course, jumped all over it.
It was all wonderful drama, but little else.

The difference here, is that Davis has a legitimate chance.

__

I think there might have been a slight miscommunication with that. I meant that the refusal to let Atkins out seems like it will be the pattern for most, if not all, of those who will remain incarcerated if and when Davis obtains his parole. I think we will find that Watson and Krenwinkel find themselves in a situation that more closely resembles that of Atkins - the utter refusal to let them out no matter what - rather than being let out like Davis (this assumes Davis will get out, which I understand is not a foregone conclusion). Maybe Beausoleil and Van Houten will be different. Only time will tell.

Leigh said...

And if there hasn't been a miscommunication, then my apologies! It's an easy thing to happen on the Internet. :)

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leigh said:
" I just think there has been a general perception, be it in comments on news stories or in the TLB blogosphere more specifically, that one getting out after all this time bodes well for most/all of the others"

Well...

The reason for that general perception, is this:

This (as everyone knows), was (and still is), a very high-profile case.

No governor really wants to be the first man/woman to release one of these clowns.

I mean... barring the inexplicable "Clem deal"... I doubt any governor really wants the esteemed distinction (LOL) of being the first man/woman to release a "Manson family member".

And that's why, the approval of Davis (or any one of these clowns), is viewed as significant.

The thought process, is that... once one governor makes that move (and releases one of them)... it will make it easier for future governor's to do so.

There is an element of truth and reality to that mindset.
It would likely make it somewhat easier for future governors.
To what degree of course, is debatable.

It's a perception.
It's the old "ice-breaker" mentality.
Who's gonna be the first governor, to "break the ice", sorta speak?
"Open the floodgates", if you will?... LOL
(OK... opening the floodgates is clearly an exaggeration, but the mindset is along those lines).

If nothing else, the release of any "Manson Family member" is historical.

-------------------------

I think this decision will carry great significance, either way.

If Davis is approved... their will be less public shock attached to any possible approvals in the future.
(That's what I was trying to say above)

If Davis is denied again, it will probably carry even more significance.
It will certainly send a very strong message.
The message being:
The others are screwed... especially Leslie.

Davis is on the thresh-hold.
By all board standards, he's earned release... twice.
A second consecutive governor denial, is pretty big stuff.

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Sorry...

That's... "there" will be... NOT, "their" will be...

I've gotta set a good grammatical example in here. LOL

starship said...

And even if Brown chooses to do nothing, doesn't his office have to announce his choice?

Leigh said...

Lynryd: "If nothing else, the release of any "Manson Family member" is historical."

And with that, we agree! I am very interested to see how it all unfolds and what it potentially leads to, if Davis does obtain release. My perceptions are only my perceptions. I could be dead wrong about any or all of them. I wasn't even born when Grogan was paroled, so I have no recollection of how that was reported on. It seems to have been done as quietly as possible. The same definitely hasn't been true for Davis. We're in a different age, the media age, the social networking age, the tech age, whatever one prefers to call it. For that reason alone the feedback loop we'll instantly witness should he be the one who crosses that particular Rubicon will be interesting. It will potentially be very illuminating in terms of where society is at in its attitudes about prison's purpose in today's society. Not that we can't glean information about those attitudes elsewhere, but something like this, a landmark case with notorious defendants who've been incarcerated for decades, will be a novelty.

DebS said...

A place has already been chosen for where Bruce will go if he is indeed released.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/27/exposition-park-residents-express-concern-over-possible-parole-of-manson-family-member/

Governor Brown has a much high percentage rate of letting the parole board decisions stand than previous governors. The odds are with Davis getting the parole.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/02/15/governor-brown-allows-parole-for-killers-at-higher-rate/

beauders said...

i think if the press was going to make a big deal about a release it would have happened in regards to fromme. more people know who fromme is than davis as well.