"And Joel’s ex-girlfriend Sandra Good, who turned 65 last month, is also silent. After Manson was incarcerated, he set up a bizarre environmental group called Air, Trees, Water, Animals (ATWA)."This is something a lot of people seem confused about. Manson didn't start all this babble about the environment until after the trial."Sandra supports this movement — and ATWA’s website denies Joel was murdered. It says: ‘Joel Pugh is described as a “former Manson Family member”. He never met Manson or any of the other so-called Family members."Well that's not true - he obviously knew Sandy! HA HAJoel was just a nice guy that got mixed up with the wrong girl. We may never know what really happened to him. But I think it's fairly obvious that this was not a suicide.Boy, that Scientology group is tough!! LOL.
from everything i have read about joels death i believe it was suicide, however just the fact that bruce davis was in the area, I cant debate those who beleive it a murder.
Hi Bobby. I'm just undecided about it being a suicide. I know that he was depressed, but the fact that his throat was slit twice, wrists slashed and blood all over the walls, sounds more like a murder scene. Of course if there had been Healter Skelter written on the walls in blood, then we'd know for sure. HA HA.
katie that somes it up for me too. There was some type of backword writting on the mirror , but he had been doing that prior to suicide/murder. had he thought to write helter sketer that really would have kept people wondering huh.from what I have read his father was not surprised as he was well aware of joels depression.bp
Hello Friends!I'm at work, on a computer that's as slooow as a snail. LOL Katie... I honestly haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but I will this evening, and comment.I just wanted to get the thread up for everyone.Thanks again Katie for your research.Much appreciated!Mary also had a great suggestion, that we can discuss as a group tonight, or tomorrow.Peace All.....
Okay thanks Lynyrd. I'll be around.
My Comclusion:Damn Sandy was HOT!Look at those legs! Wow!LOLOLBut, I digress...For me, the jury is still out.I'm leaning towards suicide, 'cuz I'm not one to be easily taken by a wild goose chase.But... the two slashes on the throat, coupled with the two slashes on the wrists... coupled with the fact that the guy was nude... seems like quite the extreme suicide.Jeez... I'd rather take some pills... and who would wamt to be intentionally found in the nude?For me, the jury is out, on this one.I went through and quickly highlighted what I thought was the "meat" of both aruments.Pro's on the side of suicide:*Coroner's Opinion... A week later, an inquest heard how notes containing bizarre mirror writing were found near his body, together with a hash pipe, leading a psychiatrist from nearby St Bernard’s Hospital to speculate Joel was suffering from depression. As far as the coroner was concerned this was nothing more than a tragic suicide. Case closed. *Psychiatrists Opinon...‘A psychiatrist who saw the notes said that little could be evaluated from them except that they were suggestive of depression.’ *Parents Opinion... ‘After checking all the medical records and the files at Scotland Yard they were satisfied the death was, indeed, a suicide.’ After Pugh’s death, his parents journeyed to London to satisfy themselves with the official verdict of suicide. Pros on the Side of Murder:*Bruce Davis was known to be in the UK about that time.*Vincent Bugliosi, the L.A. County assistant district attorney who prosecuted Manson, remains troubled at how the Metropolitan Police didn’t investigate the death fully. He says: ‘While the case resembled a suicide, it looked, and still looks, like murder to me. Nobody thought the drawings or writings were important enough to take down. ‘Nobody thought it important to establish a time of death and, even though Pugh’s room was on the ground floor and thus could have been entered by a window, nobody bothered checking for prints. It’s now unlikely the mystery will ever be solved.’ *Inside the room he discovered Joel’s body lying on the floor, the walls covered in blood. Naked except for a sheet, his throat had been slit twice and his wrists slashed. Conclusion: Joel’s family may never know what really happened to the good-natured, quirky boy who set off for adventures in distant lands in 1969, never to return. Until Davis finally comes clean, their agony will continue.
In the end, without more hard facts... I suppose suicide would have to prevail by default.
...and of course, Marylin was found in the nude too, wasn't she?Maybe there's something about being suicidally depressed, that makes folks want to expose their ass to the world. AHahahahaHow does that joke go?.. "bury me upside-down so the world can kiss my ass" (LOL)... or something like that... LOLOL
I always thought that Bruce had something to do with this...but I need to refresh myself before actually officially commenting.I heard from Saint today and hopefully his "retirement" will be short. If you are reading this, and we know you are St, take a short retirement and start getting involved in this blog. It is only day 2 and Lynyrd already has 4 of us. We know you want to join the party!
Actually Lynyrd, a lot of people who kill themselves are found nude. Not sure what the connection is. David Carradine was nude, was he not? Course I don't know if that was a suicide or "accidental death". Talk about being caught with your "pants down". LOL.Also, the house that Sebring owned on Easton Drive was supposedly "haunted" by Paul Bern, who killed himself there, and he was found nude too.But I still think it was murder. I can see someone cutting their wrists. But I can't see someone slashing their throat - twice. And spraying blood all over the walls. Just doesn't add up.St. Circumstance...you get over here right now!! LOL. We need your bawdy banter. HA HA.
I am astonished...we must be missing something - how can a man slash his wrists, his throat twice, and then cover himself in a sheet. How could this be ruled suicide in the first place. And after doing all of that, he decided to move and lay himself in front of the door?
Mary said>>>>"I am astonished...we must be missing something - how can a man slash his wrists, his throat twice, and then cover himself in a sheet. How could this be ruled suicide in the first place. And after doing all of that, he decided to move and lay himself in front of the door"? BRAVO MARY! WELL SAID!Both Katie and I, tried to make that point, but failed to do so as concisely, and convincingly as you just did.
Look what happened to Zero. He was killed "playing russian roulette". Bruce Davis was there. When the cops got there, the prints were wiped off the gun, and it was fully loaded. And unbelievably, the death was ruled a suicide.I think that's just about cops that either don't care enough or are too lazy to solve a crime.
When you line-up all the pieces the way Mary just did... it really gets you thinking.
Exactly Mary! The police didn't investigate that at all. There are way too many unanswered questions. Just because someone is depressed doesn't mean they would kill themselves.I think it was just easier to rule it a suicide and file it away.
Yeah... who plays russian roultte with more than one bullet in the gun?Shit... who plays russian roulette at all for that matter? LOLIt's ironic how wherever Bruce Davis goes... folks seems to wind-up dead huh?Joel, Zero, Hinman, Shea.And... his level of involvement, is always steeped in mystery.
The guy's like the Grim Reaper! LOLHe's "death on a stck". LOL
Oh but Lynyrd, Bruce is "born again" and doesn't have to confess anything anymore. HA HA.I'd love to see him & Tex sitting in the same room, squaring off. LOL. They could argue about who was "badder" back then, and who is "more saved" now. Hee Hee.
Mary Said>>>>"I heard from Saint today and hopefully his "retirement" will be short. If you are reading this, and we know you are St, take a short retirement and start getting involved in this blog. It is only day 2 and Lynyrd already has 4 of us. We know you want to join the party"! Hi Mary,I haven't invested any time into recruitment at all yet... but, that's my next stage.I'm gonna be putting some invitations out to friends from YouTube tomorrow.I also have some prominent friends on Youtube, who have some channels with high traffic.I'm gonna ask them to post the URL link to this blog, on their channels.O'l Lynyrd has a few other tricks up his sleeve as well."All good things, in all good time". : )There's actually a few more people here than meets the eye already.We have two self-proclaimed lurders on the membership.We also have a gentlemen from UK, whom Katie and I blogged with in the past... he just hasn't posted yet.He's immensely knowledgable, and also a member at Colonel's.We're very luck to have him.There's also 3 individuals like Saint, who are "in and out"... but, whom always come back eventually... who have given me "maybes"... but, I know they'll be here eventually.One thing about bloggng this case... once you "catch the bug", there's no turning back. LOLAnd Yes Mary... You, Myself, Katie and Bob have all voiced interest in Saint's triumphant (LOL) return!The blog will definitely get there!!!... it's just gonna take me a little time.
Please, you have 4 people in 1 day...as you told me, Rome wasn't built in a day. And it is not about quantity...it is about quality. How can anyone say you and Katie are not quality. And I don't really know bp yet...but since he is here...he has to be quality.
Lurker here.Having loads of fun watching.Lynyrd and Katie are priceless!
((((((((((ALWAYS)))))))))) LOLOLYeah... we're priceless alright! LOLWe're gonna be taking the act on broadway next! LOLOLYou told me up-front you were a lurker, but feel free to jump-in anytime.We're fortunate to have you as well!
Hi Always!! Good to see you! Join in at any time.Mary, don't ever be afraid of commenting about a subject because you're afraid you might say the wrong thing or don't know enough about it to comment.Hey I say the wrong thing half the time. LOL.The good thing about it, people on the blog will help you learn thru it. It's like passing a test and not having to study HA HA.You know Lynyrd, I hope we get about 30 bloggers on here at once. Boy howdy. We'd all have to be typing 140 wpm to get a word in edgewise. It would be like IM'ing. LOLOL.
LOLOL Yeah... that'd be quite an experience!We can only hope right?I'll have to sell AD-Space, if that ever happens! LOL
I can just see Tex Watson lying in his bunk, pretending to read his Bible, thinking "that Charlie told me there was gonna be an apocalypse. I killed all those people for nothing and now here I am, rotting in this stinking jail cell. My fake wife left me and now I got no one. And Charlie never even calls me on his cell phone. Boy, I shoulda been a plumber like my mom wanted."Leslie Van Houten looks in the mirror "Mirror Mirror on the Wall, who is the fairest of them all?" CRACKKK.Pat lies on her bunk and says "WHATEVER".
i had the misfortune to find a young man who committed suicide near my house. he was not naked,however he did remove his shows at his car & then walked about 100 yards across a plowed cornfield then did the deed.I was told by one of the detectives that removing the shows was common.bp
Hi Bobby. What are "the shows"?
Very sorry to hear that Bobby.Suicide really is no laughing matter.I wish his family (left behind) all the best.I believe he meant shoes, Katie.
Oh, so sorry. I didn't understand. Sorry Bobby, that is very sad. It's very sad that life becomes so dark there is no alternative. I'm sorry you witnessed that, and I'm sorry for his family.
You know Bobby, when I was 9 years old, we lived on a farm. And about a half mile away was an old abandoned farmhouse. Well my mother always told us to never go there, because the glass was always broken out by vandals and whatnot, but of course, when you're 9 years old, you do the opposite of what your mother tells you. LOL.Anyway, we went there one day and noticed a really bad smell. I went home and admitted to my mother that we were there, and the neighbors investigated the smell and found out that a man had killed himself in the garage with carbon monoxide from his car.That was very sad day for me too.
Mary said..."I am astonished...we must be missing something - how can a man slash his wrists, his throat twice, and then cover himself in a sheet. How could this be ruled suicide in the first place. And after doing all of that, he decided to move and lay himself in front of the door?"Simply because he would not have died instantly. People that mutilate themselves end up with pretty horrific sounding and looking but not fatal injuries. To lie across the door on the ground is no more unusual than to lie on the bed after the deed and no more difficult. Recently, my Mother in law had a fall and fell across the doorway and couldn't get up. When my brother in law discovered her, it took him ages to get the door open.
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